Vested Capital
Vested Capital

Episode · 1 year ago

Brendan Hill: How The Sale Of His Sports Memorabilia E-Commerce Business Led To A New Career Angel Investing In Australia

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Brendan Hill got his start online using a simple formula. He traveled overseas to Europe, purchased signed football jerseys, then returned to Australia to sell them at a profit. With Australia being so far from Europe, it was difficult for Aussies […]

The post https://yaro.blog/31637/brendan-hill/ (Brendan Hill: How The Sale Of His Sports Memorabilia E-Commerce Business Led To A New Career Angel Investing In Australia) appeared first on https://yaro.blog (Yaro.Blog).

One of the biggest differences I findnow between first time, founders and second time I found, as is thatdistribution. So you know first time found as they might focus on. You knowjust building the products building a MB, but the second time found is, youknow, they're, really forward, thinking and really focus on. The distribution. Welcome to Aros podcast for you'lldiscover the stories behind world class performers, business builders andenlightened leaders hey. This is Yaro and thanks for Donlin,my podcast today you're about to hear from Brandon Hill, who is anentrepreneur and angel investor from Australia. In this interview, Brandonshares his experience. First as an entrepreneur starting in e commercewebsite, all about football soccer, memorabilia in particular shirts signedby players from Europe which even brought back to Australia and sold it'sa good story. It's a classic econe story which eventually led to himselling the business, which was how we funded his now current past time. AngelInvesting. So we use the money from selling his business to switchbasically to become an investor and has now done over twenty investments, boththrough syndicates he's leading his own syndicate, which is brand news. Hetalks about what it's like to be a syndicate lead on Angel Lists. You mayhave heard of that website for angel investing, but also some of the directinvestments he's done in various different startups, including onecalled tillet, which is a AI powered product, identification scanning toolwhich helps identify things like fruit, which doesn't have a bar code and isgoing really really well down in Australia and expanding around theworld. He's an investor in that he syndicated that deal to Angel List andthat's actually, where I got involved, I dropped a little bit of money as asyndicate member into that deal as well. So you hear US talk about that soviously in entrepreneurship, in terms of e commerce and selling any comersbusiness, but, more importantly, Angel Investing Syndicates and everything todo with that side of entrepreneurship. You'll enjoy this podcast. So here wego. HERE'S BRANDON HILL! I this is Your O. Thanks for joining me today, I'dlike to welcome Brandon Hill to the podcast Brandon, thanks for joining me.Thank you, Yore, looking forward to it so brandon and I recently connectedthrough a slack group, actually Jason Cohans, who is an angel investor, andhe has a huge startup slack group for his this week in startups. PODCASTwe'll have to include that with the show notes as well, but basicallybrandon and I are both members there. It's free- and I think I don't know didwe connect about talking about Palante. Was that the first point of contact, Ibelieve so yeah yeah, I mean I invested in some Palaty secondary stock. Acouple of years ago and Y A I mean, as you mentioned, an Jason Callihan slackcommunity is fantastic place to meet like minded entrepreneurs and investors.So I think I just reached out to you. I saw one of your post saying that youalso had some Paalan ter secondary stock and we took it from there yeah.That's awesome now that led to me learning a bit more about you, and infact you got me in as an angel investor. In your angel, what is it tilly anprenoient pronounce this right. Tillet is the name of the company that yourecently did a seed round. You were part of, but I'd love to talk about allof that, but first we should probably introduce you a bit more to theaudience knows why we're talking to you. I wanted to get branded on because hehas currently doing a lot of angelinvesting, which is something I'm very interested and have been doing myselffor a few years now, but also the background stole a brandon. I believeit's a pretty awesome, a commerce story to share here, so I want to kind o lookat both worlds, but brandon. Maybe you want to give us a highlight we all just.What are your claims to fame yeah? Definitely yeah things for theopportunity again, so I mean I had an interesting journey over the lastfifteen years, so I guess I've sort of come full circle now. So I was a foundof myself of a business and now, as you are mentioned, you know I love to angel,invest in early stage start ups, so I mean I started. You know tinkeringbuilding comice website during high school and university. I mean back inthose days. You know there was there's no shop if fie there's no roof commerce,it was a lot harder, but you know I found some profitable niches. You knowin those days there's a lot of fantastic resources. You know I was anearly listener of Aros bog of your blog. You know people like Nepotal as well.You know, there's a lot of great resources where you could learn onlinemarketing and create a profitable business. So I found a profitable nichein the area of sports memorabilia. So I was a big football or soccer fan theworld game and I had a big collection. Myself of you know different sciencejerseys. You know I was a big topum hot...

...spit in and still am in the premierleague. So what I did I you know flew over to the UK. I went to Spain. I wentto Italy, I met all the different suppliers that you know obtained theseautograph jerseys and then alter had built that supply chain came back toAustralia and basically had the the Sin Joses delivered to myself herein Sydney. You know I used a lot of the you know, market in knowledge that Ihad acquired. You know created real premium product, as it was more like anexperience as well, and so I mean, if you're buying as Sin Jersey, you knowyou're buying memories, you buy memories of your favorite footballteams. Maybe your favorite match your team. Mate want a trophy, and you knowyou want to remember that. So how do you do that? You Buy Sin Jersey, soreally creating an experience built a community? You know something that youknow I learnt from you in the early days as well. The power of communityand you know, ran this. Business is very profitable. You know around it forfive or six years you know could have been comfortable and you know I lovefootball. I love travelling. You know it's a pretty good gig. You know goingover watching the Premier League multiple times and different footballleagues around the world, but I'd always been interested in startups,always being interested. You know in expanding my entrepreneurial journey aswell, so you know the time came. I started to seek a buyer for thebusiness and you know I actually found someone right here in Australia. Youknow I've been talking to people in the US and Singapore. It worked out perfect.He some transition to stay on for about six months to handle the transition andhand over the technology that we built and yeah after I exited the businesswas in a great position to use those acquisition. Funds to you know startinvesting in these early stage. Technology companies that you knowthese guys are trying to change the world. It's a superexcited space to bein as well. You know working with founders and it's kind of like gettingin I'm not sure if you're familiar with back to the future, but getting in DOCemmets getting in the deloran you're going five detecting years into thefuture. These founders have the vision of you know the building the world thatthey want to see, and you know it's super stimulating. I get a surface areaeducation in a lot of different areas. Now, AI machine learning, no I'mlearning a bit about space as well, which is super interesting. So you knowto work with different people each day. Each day is super interesting and youknow I'm trying to build out the Australian investor ecosystem as well. We went on pack a few things here,let's start with the the commerce business and we can switch to angelinvesting mode. After that, I know nothing about the memorabilia space.Besides the fact that it exists, I'm curious e, when you said you went overto Europe. Is that, like with the plan, you know you hope to pick up somethingat x dollars and then you believe that you could sell it formore, simply because you'll reach a different audience in Australia likeright the early stages of that company yeah, that's exactly right, so I meanin the early days. You know I didn't really drill down on my niche veryearly. You know I was offering all the different types of sports, so you knowI had cricket. I had rugby union, I had the local Australian sports as well,but you know, Australian customers had access to all these sports and you cango down to your local club. You can go down after the game and get theautographs. So what I was selling was. You know some man that money CombineAustralia, European Sin Jerseys footballs and football boots. So youknow it's hard for Australians to fly over to Europe. It's a very expensiveand long trip, and you know what I found was you know people are willingto pay. You know multiples on top of the costprice to acquire their heroes.Jersey as well- and you know the Premier League- was really taking offin Australia in the mid two thousands. You know we had access through. Youknow different cable providers to live games. You know that a profile of allthe Europeans was really growing expede. So it was a great combination and offactors that really created this. This profitable business. Did you just knowwhat was a good deal like? I can imagine myself, I'm landing in Englandand I'm thinking. Okay, I'm going to go to the local memorabilia store, I'mgoing to see a Jersey for sale for a football club, and then you know it'slisted out whatever a hundred pounds. I know that I can get three hundred Ozdollars and I go home. I like do you? Is that summarizes your kind of basicplan t you must have some inside I'm...

...guessing just co comes of yourknowledge of football that you can spot a good deal. Is that right, yeah I meanbeing an avid football fan and follower as well. You know, as is kept up withthe most popular players. I guess I had free market research talking to all myfootball friends as well to see who, though you know what the most popularproducts would be, but I guess you know that this is. I started this businessin a time you know before the the Lin start up, then all the Lin methodologywas really published, but you know I use some of those methodologiesunknowingly at the time you know I had kind of. I guess you could call them ina MA, inviolable product. You know I set up in Ebal. First, for example, youknow I engaged a man for different products, met different suppliers andthen, when I really wanted to scale the be business, that's when I had to takethat that trip over to Europe- and you know, discuss the deals with thedifferent supplies in the different countries, and you know once I had youknow I was pretty lucky. I found some fantastic supplies pretty early on, butI mean I mean one of the reasons that I sold their business as well. Is thatit's not a truly scalable business. You know, there's a fine amount of products.You know the players Dolly sign. A certain amount of jerseys live a ball,for example, when the Champions League in two thousand and five after thatteam. You know, for example, signs a hundred jerseys there's no more left,so you it's very manual in a way you have to uploading you differentproducts to a commerce sides, so I mean scalable was one of the definitely oneof the important things that I learned running. That business- and you knowthat's one of the things that I look for now in the startups that I investin m. You jumped ahead to the question I was going to ask you about scaling. Icould imagine. I had no idea a hundred signatures. Only that's serious demandthat I could imagine. That's a you know very little supplies that everyone'sgoing to want one. Can you just maybe break down a little bit because, likeyou said you had these connections in in Europe? Now that's going to send youa amount of product, I'm getting the picture. It's not a lot, so you can'tscale too much, but you can certainly get larger than just an e Bay storewhere maybe you're selling one night in a week or something like that. How didit scale like? Did you go from one item a week to ten times a week to a hundreditems a week, and is it just you sitting there? You know coordinating asupplier, sending a Jersey direct to a customer or are they sending you a boxfull of jerseys? It's landing in your your Sydney, garage and then you'repackaging up each individual product as it sells and sending it down. You knowthrough the post office, is that kind of the visual we've got of the earlydays of your company. That's pretty much spot on the O and it was a verymanual in the early days. You know I did have different freelances andemployees at different times were in no different peaks. You Know Well Cup, forexample, is obviously a very busy time, but that's only once every four years,so you really have to double down and make those you know golden windowsreally worth in the end. I learnt many lessons as well. You know one of thebiggest differences I've find now between first time, founders and secondtime found, as is that distribution. So you know first time founders, theymight focus on. You know just building the product building an MB, but thesecond time found, as you know, they're really forward thinking and reallyfocus on the distribution. So some of the sort of distribution hacks that Ihad you know I sold into physical stores here in Australia as well. Youknow we had different affiliates through affiliate marketing. You knowwe had different online stores on no EBA and Gumtree, but I mean the maintraffic was coming through the website. You know we had a pretty extensivecontent marketing strategy. You know learnt that from people like yourselfand your potel as well, so you know and number one our number one acquisitionchannel was. You know organic search which, at the end of the day in myexperience, is definitely the most profit all for that long term. RoiHorizon, so someone would literally typed in football or name Sign Jerseyand your site would show up yeah we. You know we had a back link strategy.We were one of the first to really utilize product videos as well. So wehad a custom product video had a version hosted on outur. We had aversion hosted on whiste that was embedded on our side that we found theSEO was a bit stronger using that method as well. We eventually migratedto woo commerce for our Economou with a lot of custom ization, and you I meanit was just a fantastic platform for ranking, really high organically andGoogle, so tak us for with that business. Obviously you did eventuallysell at what point during this process, were you making that choice and thendid you set upp the business or like...

...make some changes, so it was moreattractive to a buyer yeah. So I read, I read, actually read a book and thename is a gaping me at the moment. I think it may be called built to sell Mand it's only a short book. It's only about four hours on audible, but it's afantastic book to you know help you get your business ready for a sale, it'sabout a logo, design company. Isn't it yeah? That's right. I mean he tells ityeah. He tells the story through a parable of sorts. It's a bit of anarrative, and you know it. It's so many fantastic insights that I gotthrough that story, and you know one of the main things. As you know, are youyour business? You know no one's going to buy your business if it can't runwith that, and you know I have a lot of friends in Australia that you know runtheir own marketing agencies and it's a big problem that they have as well. Youknow they are their business. I mean Ne Patel Rode an article recently where hesaid you know. One of his biggest mistakes was calling his MarketingAgency Y. U N Ni, Bete Marketing is going to be hard to sell. You know he'sthe face of it. So there's definitely some disadvantages in that way, but Imean another great way. Another. I guess tactic that I use when I you knowtried to get my business acquit and eventually did was you know actuallyimplementing all of the digital marketing. You know strategies andtechniques to the sale of my business, so you know high converting copywriting. You know using fantastic images using video as well. So I mean Ican't stress how important video has been in my entrepreneurial journey aswell. So at the point you're thinking about selling did you have a price inmind, and I mean totally up to you how much numbers you want to share, but I'dlove to know where you were with. You know he beside the company at thatpoint, what you expected to hopefully get in terms of a sale price. I've solda few website, businesses myself and I know it's kind of dependent on whoyou're selling to. But you know you sold the in Australia, so you must havefound a local buyer. Cau. Take us through that that sales process yeahdefinitely is so now I got the business ready to sell. I took me probably aboutthree to six months. You know had all the technology up today and going backto the built callbook. You know they have different formulas in there abouthow much your business valuation is so from memory. I think a commencebusiness, it's about a two to three as multiple of your last year's netrevenue, so I mean we're a very profitable company at the time you knowwe were set up well for a sale. We were in the sort of mid six figure range andwe had a lot of people want to. You know, as you know, start their ownonline business, and you know sometimes a good head start is to acquire analready profitable business like we had a large email database, we had a bigcommunity and so the the company that actually ended up poaching us was acompany, a marketing company and they actually brought Uba into Australia,Welkin two thousand yeah back in two thousand and fifteen two thousand a Dand sixteen so the three founders. You know there were football fans as well,which definitely helped but they're also, you know interested in thetechnology that we had built as well. You know the sort of platform and you know they wanted to bring theirsort of business online more as well. So you know there's lots of energiesbetween between us and you know, I'm just so thankful that you know I got tosell to a local company that made the whole the legal and the accounting alot cheaper. We had a lot of stock on hand as well. So you know I just drovethat from Sidney to Brisbon or EA T was a yeah a lot easier than you know. Iwas talking to some potential buyers in you know the US, Singapore and a fewother places as well, so to find someone in Australia. It was a trueblessing. Is it still up and running? It is still up and running the groupthat bought it from me, actually flit it and sold it a couple of years laterto someone I was actually talking to the first time as well, so,unfortunately, for that buy they they paid even more than I sold it for butyeah from what I know is still going well, and you know thing about football-is it's always going to be popular? The product is always going to be in demand,and because we had you know the strong. So we have a strong supply chain strongcustomer base, it's definitely a fantastic foundation for someone tobring new ideas to and continue to grow. What's the domain name haven asked youthat friends and everyone to it out, yeah ye, so the domain name is premiersports, memor, BLOM, okay, opening me...

...up my else. I can check it out, so youmake the sale now, I'm guessing. If you're talking about two to threemultiple and you said mid six figures, you're making a I'd say a good chunk ofmoney. It's not retired forever money, but it's going to keep you going for along time. If you don't do anything else, no matter what, though youcertainly faced a moment in your life or you had options so take me throughyour decision making process for the what's next once the sale wascompletely finished and you were a free man from that business, so I mean onceI had the money you know I had a lot of options: the Yaro. It's not going tokeep me going for too long with the House prizes in Sydney a true, it'strue, probably like one house at the moment. Isn't it very prosy here in sine Australia, butyou know I had options and you know I really sort of reached out to my mentalas well, and I really wanted to. I guess- highlight the importance ofhaving mentals in now each area of your life as well. So you know, I asked allthe people that I respect the most and I basically went away for about six totwelve months just to study the areas that I was impassionate about. You knowI studied entrepreneurship and I reflected on the lessons that I learnedfrom you know running an online business for seven years, and you knowwhat I came away with is you know I wanted to work with passionate foundersthat are changing the world and you know one way to do this is to startanother business, and I mean I could have done that learned a lot offantastic lessons, and you know second time founders, that that's why I likebacking second time town this as an investor now, because they don't makethose same mistakes that they make the first time so I mean I went and now Iwas actually inspired by Tim Ferris as well. So he has a case study that hetalks about a lot. He calls that his two year investing MBA, so he waslooking at doing a MBA at Stanford and instead of that he decided to startangel, investing and learning from the actual founders. So I I I mean he didthat after selling his e commerce start up as well o parallels here, yeah a lotof power, probably age to. I think at the time I would say yeah yeah so early.I so you know definitely inspired by that story. So I had a lot of friendsin the start up scene in Australia and you know I'd be been interested in thein the start up space in Australia, since you know two thousand and twelveand two thousand and thirteen, and in the last seven years you know it's gonethrough a size mix shift as well. As I remember going to one of my firstentrepen talks and I was actually Melanie Perkins the canvas of no andthey are just launched. You know they had spent one year. I believe it was.You know, building out their products. So another lesson as well. You knowthere's no one way to build a successful start up, so this was at thetime when the len start up had just come out. You know everyone was, youknow, failing fast an you know, getting the product out their rapid iterationon the product from customer feedback, but you know canvert sort of went adifferent route. You know they went behind closed doors, they built outthere their technology for a whole year. You know they had investors, sort of pestering them to you know atleast robable something yeah t get something got into the market, but youknow they kind of viewed it as they had one chance to get it right. They wantedto make their product beautiful. You know they had a big mission as well.You know demophanes design, and you know we all know how that turned out.You know now they're valued at six point two billion dollars and you knowthey've done a lot for the the Australian start up the ecosystem aswell. You know it's funny. You mentioned that time in Cambo Life,because I was in Sydney. I think it would have been maybe six years ago,seven years ago- and I remember it wasn't Melanie herself, but it wassomeone because of a small team back. Then it was someone there invited me tonot ter. It was a tour of the office. I think it was simply because you know Ihave a Bhog and they were looking to do outreach and start getting some linksback and some exposure for what they were doing. So maybe they were hoping.I would review their platform. I remember thinking now in the in thehistory. If I had gone- and I don't know if there was like a seed roundcoming up or something like that, but the opportunity to invest, I,unfortunately not only- I not even go and visit them. I left Australiacompletely literally months later so missed that boat. But I remember whencanvased succeeding for me it was like- and this is, I think, a great segueinto your own investment philosophy. If I had gone into canvas offices at thetime, I'm pretty sure you know maybe I'll be wrong, because the people mighthave impressed me, but I'm pretty sure...

...just looking at the idea alone, I wouldhave never have foreseen it becoming a successful as it has because it wasessentially just another image, editing tool of which there were already manynothing to show. I would take off the way it has. Did you have any kind oflike when you first heard about Canaba and even with your investmentphilosophy? Now I like this, this idea of investing in second time founders-that's that's smart, but in terms of product and things like that, do youhave any strategies yeah definitely, and I can go back to the Cambra exampleas well. So what I like to look for in the founders that I invested in there'sthat sense of the inevitability of success, and you know that's whatMelanie had when I heard a talk in two thousand and thirteen. Now they had asmall team. As you mentioned you based in Surry Hills, the first forty orfifty pictures that she gave you know all the investors said no, but you knowshe was talking on stage and you know talking about getting to know going toroll out this feature. When we get to one million users we're going todemocratize design, you know we're going to take on a dobe Microsoft. Allthese massive players- and this is a small start up in Sydney. So you knowshe's talking with that, much gravitas that you know you just want to getinvolved, and you know this happened with one of my recent investments aswell. A gentleman, the name of Tarik and he's started a start up. Good ChairCom to AU Spelt Che and he's disrupting the same day pay lending space so he'soffering five percent a fight, feed, no admin fees, no late fees- and you knowit is really helping people get on top of financial emergencies. So now I methim in a first meeting was in a co working space in Sydney he came up withhis track suit. Pants on you know, probably you don't usually get thatwhen you're meeting an investor that wants to invest in your company, butyou know he's hoping in a lazy, but I mean similar to Melanie as well.You know so much confidence. You know he's talking about. You know rollingout feature O X Y AC when we get to two hundred and fifty sand users, and it'sjust him and his co founder coding this in a co working space in Sydney. Well,but you know another thing I look for is entrepreneurs that say that do whatthey say, they're going to do and Tarek you know over the last year has donethis as well. You know now he's got over ten send users on his platform.You know he's built a community they're super sticky as well. They keep comingback. You know, he's changing consumer behavior and he's really, you knowhelping people put food on the table, so he's changed it's kind of like a topay as well. It's it's a really successful start up that we have inSydney, so there are by and now pay later model and with Tariki check. It'slike a it's a the full pay. Sometimes he cause it. You know unlocking accessto the wages, you've already earned, you might get paid once a month. Youknow if you have some kind of emergency. If your car breaks down now you canaccess your pay check in advance and only pay that five percent I see soundslike intersting investment. I'm curious to hear more about it, but I'd love toalso take a step back, maybe to the start of this investment journey. Onyour end, because, obviously you know, once you write some checks, you speakto founders, it becomes something you more comfortable with, but take us tothat first experience. I guess where you were I'm guessing. You were backfrom that education good time and you want you decided you're going to do aninvestment MBA like to ferris. Did I'm assuming your strategy was Australiabecause you do keep talking about the Australian scene and you want to bethere and supporting Australian companies. You go and see Melanie talkwas that part of a strategy of establishing deal flow just simply byattending events like what was your plan at that point? Yeah. That's ahundred per Ben Right Yer! So you know we call it deal flow in the investorent world, so you always need to be building out the deal flow and you knowDopo can come from a variety of places. It can come from. You know events likethat. You know in coved times a deal flow is getting a lot more global aswell. You know tech crunch disrupt, for example, all is happening right now inSeptember, a meeting a lot of fantastic people virtually on their platform. Youknow it's about meeting founders as well. You know participating in online groups.It's really getting your name out there as well, so I mean actually one of thequotes that Taret from check. So you know it's not about you know who youknow it's about. You knows you, so you know a lot of person or branding. Youcan do to get your name out there as well. But you know one of the bestthings is having positive word of Nowe...

...with founders, so I as try and help mydifferent founders in my portfolio companies. As much as I can. You know,with my marketing background, with the large network that ve built inAustralia, I kind of almost try and be like a super rout of sorts, so connectthem with my network, and you know one of the problems that wehave in Australia. That's the United States is that that really early stagecapital problem. So it's hard for these past goring trending companies to getthe capital that they need to really kick start their companies and it'sbased around a variety of reasons- were a lot more risk, a verse in Australiathan now US counter parts. Some cultural, cultural sort of reasons forthe that- and you know we haven't- had the Google s the face books that others,you know, there's not really that that history of big start up and aidingsuccess like they do in the US. But you know companies like amber and at Latina definitely changing that as well. But you know what I'm trying to do now andI'm actually working with the University of New South Wales, the UNsW founders program, we're actually running a course and we're educatingyou know every day, investors on help the become angel investors, as so lastyear we ran a three day course. We had seventeen different angel investorscome in and share their experiences, and you knowour goal is to get you more people in that early stage funding ecosystem tohelp out these founds that you know they may need you know two hundred andfifty thousand dollars. It could be the next candor. You know to get theirproduct off the ground just back in two thousand and thirteen to Tsanda twelve,when Camber was starting out that you had any perkins had to fly over to SanFrancisco. She stayed on her brother's couch and you know she was justpitching angel investors over in the US, and I've had a similar experiencerecently helped just start up, join some syndicates and syndicate anallocation of their series a and we did one syndicate in Australia and we didthe other syndic in the US and the questions from the investors from theAustralian side. You know it was all about money. You know how much runwaydo you have what Your Burn Ray? What's your revenue, then, on the US side,there's literally not one question about any monnet, very concerns. Youknow the US questions at all about how big can your product get? What's yourteam like and you know, how fast can you go, so you can still see in twothousand and twenty the mind set between the two countries and theirinvestment philosophy is are definitely still a lot different, but you knowthat would definitely change over time and especially coming up out of covedas well. You know we need to back these new companies because they're going tobe the people that you know create jobs and help us get out of this recessionthat we're cononel in you haven't dropped your first investment story. Iprinted what was it well, the first investment story actually through anold friend, so it's definitely important to build out that network andkeep in contact and continue to drop value to as many people as you can. So this was a superannuation company.So it's a like a four o one K in the US. They were called gross super, so theywere, they were helping millennial, get on top of their retirement savings andplans, and they did this to an up interface. They combined, if you hadmultiple super funds, they combine that and made topping up your Super Fun. Ibe sort of game ified that and made that easy as well, and you know theseguys super successful, which was. I waspretty thankful for my first investment, because I didn't really have enougheducation, as I probably should have, and that's a common mistake when youstart angel vesting. You know it's so excited. You know you just want to makethat at first investment- and you know I would definitely recommend to to you-know a lot of reading Jason Calicat as a fantastic book called Angel and he'sone of the most successful angel investors of all time. I, as one of thefirst money in UBA. He had twenty five Sandor Check in U Bo and he had a fourthousand per cent return, which is not bad, but you know there's all kinds ofthings that you need to look out for in your first investment. You know. Areyou investing too much? That's actually a question. I wanted to ask you aboutmoney toward to Rup, because I can go back to Tim. Ferris's story with hisfirst Angel Investments, I think he had like plan to invest something like ahundred or maybe two hundred thousand dollars, and you basically blew fiftysandolas on a couple of investments that went nowhere straight away likeright out of the gate. It sounds like...

...your early stage. We were you thinking,yeah I'll drop, twenty five thousand. Fifty thousand on x number of companieslike what was what's your monetary plan like how much do you decide to put intoa company yeah? So that is correct with the team. Paris example did lose fiftyzero. You know twenty five percent of his allocated capital and his firstinvestment. So I mean that's why people like Jason Calicat, you know theyrecommend. If you are, for example, in investing two hundred thousand in havetwenty equal bets of ten thousand is then you also need to keep in mind. Youneed to save some money for the follow on rounds as well. Do you need to keepback in your winners and are actually getting product market fear, they're?Getting customers they're scaling their companies because you know you're goingto get an outside return from. You know one or two of your winners of yourwhole pot holyer. So you know I was thinking around the same lines and itcomes to an interesting point as well. You are around you, know, directinvesting and investing in a syndicate. Let's explain what that difference isfor those who got know yeah. So if you invest directly with the company,they're usually going to ask for a minimum of twenty five to fifty sanddollars, whereas a syndicate on the other hand, that's where you gather youknow it could be a large bunch of angel investors and I go into a special fundand they have one lead of the syndicate and it's a fantastic way to democratizeangel investing at low amount. So you can on Angel List, for example, where Ihave a syndicate as well. You can invest as little as one thousanddollars into a deal, so you might have you know a hundred different peoplethat invest one sand dollar each, for example, and that syndicate will raiseone hundred thousand dollars. The only down side of the syndicate approach isthat you have to pay the syndicate lead at twenty percent carry and that standsfor carried interest and you're, basically paying that twenty percentcarry. You know to get access to the deal, as these are usually really harddeals to get access to. You know the founders, don't want to talk to ahundred individual people as well, and you know the syndicate lead is alsodoing the due diligence as well. So I mean syndic is a great way to get into.You know deals all around the world. You know I've invested it in deals fromColumbia, Mexico, the US and you know, even if I was in the United States, andI wanted to invest in a start up, you know they'd asked for a hundredthousand US minimum, and you know the legal set up and structure would bevery costly for me being Australian citizen as a well. So that's why I m abig fan of this syndicat approach. I D love to actually pick your brain aboutthe behind the scenes of your own syndicate, obviously correctly fromwrong, but I'm assuming your story would have gone where you did a fewdirect investments, like you said: Twenty five thousand to fifty thousandinto companies in Australia. But at some point you said now, I want to leadat my own syndicates, I'm going to go to Angel Ist got so so the most popularkind of global platform for Angel Investing, but more importantly, forleading a syndicate of you tell me a little bit about what happens behindthe scenes and, let's, let's make it practical, because I'm an angel in yourSindici. Now I was one of x number of people who put a couple of thousanddollars in ttile. Maybe you could explain how that veal came to be andhow it all works behind the scenes as much as you can reveal. Of course, Iknow some of its can't be revealed the public yeah. Definitely so I mean Angelist is a fantastic platform. It was founded by Naval Ravea and I definitelyrecommend checking out some of his writings and podcast as well.Definitely one of the most knowledgeable have come across and it's a fantastic way to get intoangel investing. As you said, your own, so syndicate leads, you know they bringstart up deals so startups might be raising the Seero a series, a groundsand the syndicate lead, secures an allocation in these rounds, and theseusually start up that they're really close to that they have a relationshipwith then they have to have previously invested in the company as well. Sothen you write the deal. Note you get the deal on Angel List and Angel Leishas now it's the biggest community of angel investors in the world. So theyhave, you know fantastic reach and they advertise the deal on their platform,and then you can invite different investors as well, and something that'spopular on Angel List at the moment. Is it's called Coast indiccate? So formyself I did my first syndicate and Yaro. Thank thank you for backing init's one of the reasons we connected, and I did that about two months ago andbecause I'm a new syndicate on the platform I actually coursed indicatedthe deal with a more established Angel is syndicate, lead and H. I mean it'ssimilar to you know how you grow a...

...podcast in a outur channel as well. Youcollaborate with more established people in the base, and then you showthem that you also can provide value, and then you acquire them their membersas well. So we had a small allocation to leaders,series a- and you know bit o back story on on toletum there, the world's mostflexible identification system for products without Bar cods. So it's afantastic team that I met in Sydney, and you know three of the best foundersthat that I've met for sure and they've created a AI algorithm that canidentify any product without a barked. So the first article that they wentafter with this technology was fresh fruit and prod ges, so they actually inAustralia's largest supermarket chain war words. At the moment they have anautonomous check out. So you can put your different variety of Red Appleunder their SCAENA and it uses computer vision andai to automatically identify what type of apple it is what weight and then youcan actually get your mobile phone out scan the bar code and you can walkquite out of this storm. So you have your credit card pre loaded on the APP,and this is a fantastic contact, less shopping method during ovid and yeah,proving really successful at the moment. So is this a case where you get to knowthe founders, for example, till it here in this case, just through your usualconnecting with people, and then you know you talk to them. You find outthey're doing a raise in this case of series a and you just say hey. Can Iget a proportionate allocation of that and I'm going to syndicate it to my myfollowers and raise whatever I can raise? Is that kind of how it works?Roughly speaking, yeah I mean Raly speaking. That's that good. I mean younever want to. I guess an approach, a starter then try and get an allocation.You know if you, if you can't feel that allocation as well, because you knowwith a start up that need to move fast. You know they're always trying toextend their runway as well and grow as fast as possible. So you really need tocommit to a number that you think you can achieve and I think the thing aboutAngel Investing and after you've been doing it for a couple of years. Youknow you really get to read people, you know you as people asfounders. Like I mean that's one of the skills of angel investing. You need tobe able to tell what type of people are going to be successful in building thenext great company, because in the early days there's not that muchinformation there. It's not like investing in public stock market. Youknow we can't look through their revenue reports. We can't look throughthe historical reports, there's a lot more things that are wrong than ourrise, so you really need to focus on the things that are right and you knowyou need to ask yourself. You know if these couple of things do go right,know how big can this idea get and that's definitely something withTilette as well. You know, they've, you know they're in super markets which aretraditionally very hard to get into. You know they only have innovationcycles every sort of five to seven years so for tillet to have sixteencustomers around the world, some of the biggest supermarkets like war, worslittle Nedo in Europe. You know these guys are ever four thousand stores tobe able to penetrate that. You know that the product is, you know,definitely one of a kind, and you know the technologies fantastic. So you knowI got to know the founders over about a year and I've got to you know it's noteasy getting an allocation from such a you know a thought up and comingcompany as well, so I had to show a lot of value. You know I helped them in alot of different areas, and you know I was lucky enough to get a smallallocation of I series aim and they wanted. You know some more exposure tothe US investor market. As well, so that's one thing that needs o this isthis fantastic boy? It has a lot of US investors and we actually listed thedeal on Angel List and angelest have their internal funds. So this Fundlooks at every deal before it goes live, and you know we are like enough to geta large investment from them as well, which was a great signal and yeah. Itwas a really successful syndicate and now trying to replicate this with othercompanies in Australia that want to scale to the US to want to get thatexposure and yeah. It's fantasie getting those earlystage. Investments in Australia into these great deals as well as kind of acircular economy, is sorts where everyone wins m. So how many deals haveyou done at the moment for investments...

...as I've done personally, twenty twoangel investments in Australia, the US, Mexico and Colombia, and I mean acrossall different areas as well in a computer vision, Payments Space, thefinal frontier, it's the thin, as, as I said earlier inthe interview as well in the odes fantastic way to get you that surfacelevel, education across so many different areas- and you know it'sexciting now, each each morning I wake up excited about you know what am Igoing to learn today? What deal I'm Mak going to see today and now being partof Angel List as well. You get to see dells from all across the world. Youknow the latest like comminated Demi Day just happens so white common in orwise sees the largest accelerator in the world. You know companies like aBinbin trop box have come out of there in the milly days. You know they have ahundred and fifty companies in their cogor now and twice the year. So youcan imagine how I man, equality, founders and companies are comingthrough no daily on Angel List, a super efin space yeah. I agree. I did ainvestment in space as well in satellite company called it a cashthrough Ireland Hamilton indicate- and I was learning about satellites for thefirst time ever and different types of space in terms of you know near objects,middle and distance, and it is, it's makes you more jested as an investor tobecause normally I'd be interested in space, but now I'm like okay, how isthis company different, special and you're? Getting your own education butyou're? Also, as an entrepreneur excited about the potential, I know,Bertin there's only a fewer minutes before you got to wrap up for anothermeeting, I'd love to know. Obviously you know you've kind of had both sidesof this experience. You've been an e commerce on repreeved, had a successfulexit. You've turned that money now or some of it any way into various or overtwenty angel investments. It's early enough days that you can't say that youknow you've got a ober in there, yet I'm assuming, but that's the ultimateplan, isn't it that we're going to hit something of that level, but maybeyou've got some other goals as well like what are your personal goalsaround angel investing besides, and I know you can answer in one way you likehelping other enprinted. That answer a side, because I know that's the casefor you. But what are your other goals? Yeah an? I definitely want to get morepeople into the area of angel embarrassing. So, as I mentioned, weran of course last year there all kinds of people that came to their course.You know we had x Bounders, we had no investment bankers, we have all kinds of different people, and Imean angel investing is such an interesting and young asset class andthere's a lot of barriers that are get any knockdown, but access is gettingeasier. You know it's a great way to get an education and learn about theecosystem. I think it's great for founders as well like, even if you'renot interested in angel investing. I think it's a great way to you, know,get inside the mind of investors and you know see how they think you knownot. Every Angel investor is looking for the next. We bar you know theymight have different goals and aspirations there might be a socialimpact. Invest for free example, so mean in Jason, callicoes book againAngel that let's cut some great chapters that I recommend every founderthat I coit mental read as well just to get inside mindst of the Invest Tom.And how do you make your company more in vestibule, because you know thewhole fundraising process from the canderine? You know they can take I'veseen that take up to six months for some people- and you know it takes themout of their business and definitely affects the growth and things like thatso yeah. My goal is definitely to get more people interested in angelinvesting. You now present them with the best deals, and you know I havesome goals around. You know philanthropy as well that I'm still inthe early days and working on at the moment, I had actually worked at InesseAustralia when I was first out of university in the Marketing Department,so I definitely have an affinity for social, good and change and yeah. I'mthinking of different ways that you know successful angel investors cancontribute towards these type of goals as well awesome branding. So where canwe go? I guess there's so many things now you're doing, but is there a goodentry point for getting in touch with you, yeah, I'm very active on linked inin terms of answering messages, so you can find me out linked in if you typein Brandon Hill I'll be the first response, and I also dropping the linkto my Angel List Syndicate in the show notes as well. Send that to you, your O,O and yeah. Any questions that you guys have about. You know investing theEntrepreneur, ship e COMIS start up, I'm more than happy to talk to you. Iam curious. This may be one last question. What with Angel List since Ithink I was utility, was your first syndicate there is s the plan to bevery regular there. Do you want to be...

...like a Jason Coconas doing a deal aweek or deal a month at some point? Yeah I mean there are. There aresyndicate leads that you know do do a deal a week and stuff like that, but Iwant to make sure that I'm only syndicating, you know the cream of thecrop, the best absolutely best founders that you know A. I know personally, beyou know, they're thinking global from day one. You know they want to takeover the world with their product. So I think I'll, be you know about one deal.A quarter would be my sort of cadence and yeah just syndicating that the bestdeals that Australia has to offer. Often randon thanks for sharing bothsides of that story, the entrepreneur and the angel investor. I feel likeit's perhaps still early days with that Angel Investing Career, but I love thatyou're also educating and trying to bring more people into it. MePersonally, and I guess I've been more like two years- I call myselfconsistently angel investing, although I had one very very early one long timeago, I didn't realize it was angel nvesting, really, when I did that one,I think it's a great space, so anyone listening in if you're finding thisidea interesting. I think the most important point to make- and I knowthis was a break through for me- is that to join a syndicate, it's athousand dollars to get started in a lot of these deals that you can have avery, very small chunk in one of these start offs. I could turn into asignificant return. We, maybe not a four thousand x return like over withJason, not that is a bit of a one and a you know, billion kind of resolve, butthere's no reason why you can get a good result. There's no guarantees. Ofcourse most companies do fail. I was going to say that, but I think it'sexciting to be involved, and I love seeing the behind the scenes in for youget to about these companies. I be as an entrepreneur being an angel investoris actually really insightful. Gives you an idea of, what's kind of workingfor them and, like you said what industries are taking off and whatbusiness models people are using, so I'm sure Brandon. I will touch base onyou in the good deals in the future and they keep up good work. Yeah thanks.You are thanks for happy me hey. This is Yaro and thanks for beinga listener. Now, in this episode, if there was something you think wouldbenefit a friend a family, member or colleague, maybe an entrepreneur thatyou know, maybe it was something to do with getting traffic or launching aproduct or just coming up with an idea make sure you send this episode to them.It could change the trajectory of their life and I really appreciate theintroduction to my show, also, if you're not a subscriber make sure youclick that subscribe, Vien, whether it's in Google or apple or yout orsporific and you'll get my episodes as I release them, thanks again for beinga listener. Thanks for listening to Yar's podcastfor more episodes visit, Yaro Dat log and subscribe on, I tunes or Google.

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