Vested Capital
Vested Capital

Episode 30 · 1 year ago

(EP30): Mikkel Thorup, World Traveling Expat, How To Move Offshore And Eliminate Taxes


Mikkel Thorup hosts The Expat Money Show podcast (I was on episode 155) and has spent over 21 years in continual travel around the world, visiting more than 100 countries including Colombia, North Korea, Zimbabwe, and Iran. 

Mikkel runs a consultancy to help high net worth individuals move overseas, providing guidance on tax structure, visas, residencies, passports, raising your family (education, lifestyle), company structure and banking.

I asked Mikkel on to Vested Capital, first to learn about his background and how he left Canada and became a world traveler, and then how he was able to learn such a unique and dynamic skillset -- staying up to date with everything an expat needs to consider when moving overseas.

During the second half of the interview I asked Mikkel all the big questions, including which countries should we consider moving to, how to avoid paying tax and where to setup your company and bank accounts. 

Enjoy the podcast.




Hello, this is Yarrow and welcome to vested capital, episode number thirty, featuring my guest Miquel thorop, the founder of expat money. Vested capital is a podcast about how people make money and put their capital to work. I interview start up founders, Angel investors, venture capitalist, Crypto and Stock Traders, real estate investors and leaders in technology. My guest today, Michael, is an expert at becoming an expat. So basically moving to another country. Now, that decision is often a complex one, because you're not doing it just because you want to have a better lifestyle, maybe better whether, better food, better culture, but also there are tax implications. A lot of people make the decision to move overseas or move their residency to another country in order to reduce or even turn their tax debt to zero. There's benefits to moving your company to other places, setting up your bank accounts in different countries. Basically, these core decisions around where your passports are, where your residencies are, where your company is set up, where you're banking and financial information goes, where do you invest your money? These are all different factors that come into play when you make a decision to move overseas. Now I've become fascinated by this topic over the years, a because I became a digital nomadam again to travel and saw that I would like to live in different countries and cities around the world, but also for the obvious reason that the tax benefits. Paying taxes in Australia I grew up was a significant amount of money that came out of what I was making from my business, and every time I paid myself that obviously incurred a personal tax. Capital gains taxes when you're selling assets, you know you might enjoy the sale of a company or a sale of investment, but then you have to give a big chunk of it to a government. There's nothing wrong with that. But for some people they want to make the decision to go where they can get a better rate of return, so a lower tax rate. Or perhaps they just don't want to support certain government regimes and how they use their tax dollars. You know, maybe you don't like the idea that your tax money goes to funding could be military expenses or invasions of other countries or supporting certain people or policies. You may have all kinds of reasons for wanting to make this change, and Michel is the kind of person you go to when you just don't know the structure you need to put in place and how you should make this move, not just from all the things I've talked about, but also just purely the human aspect of this of perhaps picking yourself up, picking your family up. Where's a good place for schools? Where's a good place to raise a family? Those kind of decisions as well. Michel is a great person to go to for help. In fact, he runs a consultancy of people who are high net worth individuals. It's not a low ticket item. You're looking to spend tenzero plus if you want to get help from someone like Michel. That's, of course, justified when you are considering setting up something overseas, potentially moving a lot of your assets and, you know, really setting up a new life somewhere else. Even if you're not a high net wealth individual, this podcast and this conversation will be very eye opening to you if you've never looked into the potential of moving somewhere and all the different factors that go into making that decision. We do spend a bit of time talking to mckel about his own personal early days, how he became a traveler, what influenced his decision around where he lived and how he was able to support himself financially during the early days as he traveled around the world and also lived in certain countries for years at a time, and how that then connected to him getting this skill set and then becoming an expert on what it takes to turn into an Expat to live somewhere else, which is basically his business and his podcast. Today he has a super helpful podcast with all kinds of interviews around the topics have already mentioned, residency, passports, which countries to move to for what, certain benefits, tax deductions, buying property, all these things. He's got over a hundred seventy episodes in his archive, so well worth checking out that it's called the expat money show, but in this episode we're going to hear some really good introductory information, especially the the last twenty minutes. If you want to fast forward just to the pure topic around what you need to think about when you're making a move, tax benefits, properties, passports, all of that, mckel dives into what you should be thinking about with that kind of decision. And, of course, if you want more support from him, you can book a consulting call with him and, if your high net worth individual, maybe even hire him as a consultant to help you get everything set up. And of course, he has access to lawyers and accountants and a whole team around supporting people when they make this kind of move. Before I hit the play button on an interview once again. Today's episode is brought to you by our sponsor, inbox donecom, a company that provides executive assistants to help you manage your email schedule, a calendar and all associated admin tasks. Their designed to free you up, to simplify your life so you can get back to focusing on what matters most to you in your business and your life.

So if you're currently drowning in too many messages, that could be email, that could be support Tsk tickets, that could be social media, inbox messages, all of these things can be delegated to specialist executive assistants who are qualified and trained to handle the delicate aspect of working with an email and other forms of personal communication. They're especially trained to go through inbox management with a client to take over and handle that, to reply to your messages for you to organize them, to build a system around that documentation. fause they can become your your executive assistant, Your Customer Support Team, as well as your clone. So if you need that kind of service INBOX DONECOM is the place to go. Okay, let's begin the interview now. Okay, thank thank you. Here we are again. We're doing a take two or having some technical issues, but I'd like to once again say a big hello and thank you to my friend. I was going to call him Mike, but it's Miquel Thorpe. Thank you for joining me today. Yes, thank you very much for having me. And just a little bit of context. Yarrow was giving me a hard time about my name before we joined. You shouldn't be giving anyone a hard time, because your name is very unique on its own as well. So yes, it's true there's not many yarrows, but I haven't met that many mchuel's. Maybe I haven't gone to the right countries for that, and you would meet some of the Aros, Crainey Danish heritage. So I mean if you go to Denmark, I think you will meet lots. Not that I speak Danish or have a big relationship with Denmark at all. But yeah, named after my great grandfather. Nice, okay, and and similar for me. If you go to Ukraine you would meet some yarrows and I'm a Canadian with the Ukranian background there. So similar but different, Miquel, why are you here? So I've grabbed Michael for several reasons. The main one is the his expertise, his speciality, is this very interesting, very modern topic of where is the best place to go for all these different aspects of your tax structure, your business structure, your banking structure, where, even what do you want to live on the planet, since digital nomadism obviously, is especially huge now after covid remote work lifestyle. I personally have been a digital nomad and traveled a lot since my sort of early twenty, so it's a twenty year journey for me, but a lot of people listening in are just first now realizing the potential to be anywhere run their business. And, of course, where do you put your bank account? Where do you pay taxes? These are all the questions that mckel is very, very good at answering and has an entire business around. So I want to dive into your background, Michael, but perhaps just to give a little bit more context beyond what I just said. What else should we know about you? Okay, well, I guess the structure of my business, or what do I actually do for a living? Is I help Americans and Canadians, yes, Europeans and Australians and other people, but mostly Americans and Canadians to move overseas. Now, whether that be themselves, their physical body move overseas, or that is their company structure or that is their wealth, we help them move abroad and we do this for a number of reasons which we can dissect in this interview. Mostly because of lifestyle tax reasons. Were always doing it in a legal and tax efficient manner. We do it for asset protection reasons. There's many things that people might want to do. But yeah, I'm happy to get into my backstory and how I learned these things and how I help people and hopefully give some tips and tricks and some value for the listeners today there. Before we do that, that's answer the most important question. Why would you want to answer these questions we're talking out? Besides, obviously you know, let's say I want to be like you, I want to move to Panama. What should I be thinking about and why would I approach someone like yourself? Yeah, absolutely, so, okay, so as a desire for wanting to move overseas, I can talk about my personal desire, but I can also talk for the many clients that I've worked with. A lot of people do not like the political situations that's happening in North America right now. They don't agree with where their tax dollars are spent. They might not identify with these types of policies that are going on. That is comes up on basically a daily basis for me. The other things are people want to go somewhere with a better climate. Maybe they want to go with warmer weather. I mean, as Canadians, I think that that is very easily understood said of spending seven months in three feet of snow every single year, we can be down in Panama, we can be on the Caribbean, you know, we can be drinking apparel sprits in the sunshine and having a nice life. Then there's just the tax issue itself. That, as I hinted on. If you don't want your tax dollars spent on funding wars or projects that you don't like, maybe you want to make sure that there's more money that you can invest back into your business to grow your business, then doing it in an offshore jurisdiction is certainly a way to do it. Okay, I'M gonna go into one question that I feel was quite topical. Now, to cryptocurrency doesn't have to be specifically about cryptocurrency, but I know a...

...lot of people right now are dabbling in that space. It's creating a new source of income. Obviously, the tax laws are around cryptocurrency are quite underdeveloped, let's say, in depending where you are, do people come to you too because they have unique asset classes or unique sources of revenue and they want to simplify their life in some ways as well? I know you're talking about political changes, where the changes lifestyle changes, but from a purely financial standpoint, is that often one of the main reasons to look at doing some kind of offshore set up? I do have a lot of people who are crypto investors, early investors, who have made hundreds of thousands, millions, hundreds of millions of dollars in cryptocurrency, so it is something that we certainly look at. I would say that it's not exclusively what I work in, although I am extremely familiar with it. I've been in Crypto for over five years myself and done very, very well. I also have structures and tools in the tool box that can help people who do crypto, but I wouldn't brand myself as a crypto only kind of guy. As I said, I think it's one aspect and with that we have strategies that deal with that, but also people who are not yet into it, I can help bring them in. Does that make sense? Yeah, it doesn't. I guess if we broaden that out, though, to not just crypto, if we're talking anything. I could have just sold my business or expect to sell my business. I might have angel investments and I expect them to, you know, vest at some point. Absolutely. So highly appreciated assets, definitely we deal with that, whether that be real estate, like apartment complexes. I have a client WHO's worth over two hundred million dollars. He bought his apartments in the early s late S and we're looking at massive gains. So how do we structure something like that? How do we make sure that we delay or offset the taxes? I mean, those are pretty advanced topics, but those are things that we deal with. So, whether that's real estate in this example or Crypto in your example, it does come up on a very regular basis. Okay, now, I know people listening in there thinking, Oh, does that mean Michel is a lawyer or an accountant or both, because that would be the default places we'd go to get asked to these kind of questions. But I don't think that's really a full answer, is it? Because that's not what you are. I think that to answer that question you should ask me about my back story, which will pretty much answer itself. Okay, on that, you can lead the podcast for me. Let's let's go back at time where I have where were you, guess? So I'm very good at asking questions and if you don't ask the question, I will ask it for you. You are open care you know I'm the host. I want I'm what I'm curious about. You're going to answer right, Michael. So let's let's go back in time. Where were you born and raised? All right, so I'm born and raised in southwestern Ontario and what happened was, when I was a child I was diagnosed with a learning disability and I was in grade three and the teacher pulled me out of class one day and they took me to a little room and the principle and the resource teacher and I think maybe the vice principle were there and they sat me down and they said, Miguel, Miguel, something doesn't work quite right in your brain and what we want to do is we want to send you to a special school, Special School for Special Boys. And that's what they did yarrow every day for three years I got a little white bus, I took a little white bus across town and I went to this special school. Now only problem was it actually was not a special school, it was a regular school with a special class. So you can probably imagine what happened. I got picked on a ton, I got in fights, I got bullied, tons of terrible things. Now this is not a poor Michel. What was me? What was me? Victim type of thing? I am certainly no victim and I definitely gave as good as I got, there's no question about that. But I went to the special school for three years. I absolutely hated the experience. I used to come home just hating school on all fronts. But eventually I got to go back to my neighborhood school and I got to see all of my friends and I was so excited. I was like, wow, my friends will have missed me. You know that had seen me in three years. Okay, maybe I saw him on summer break or something like that, but for a lot of them I hadn't seen him for three years. So you can probably once again guess what happened. All the kids started with Spring and Gossiping. Oh, I know Michel. He went to some retard school S. totally politically correct kids are very sensitive, politically correct kits, absolutely, but had a difficult time through grade seven and eight and basically stopped going to classes at that age. And fast forward, I somehow made it into high school. They would send me to summer school and then I'd fail summer school and then they send me back to class and I'd fail that, but squeak my way into high school and and it was the same type of things. So I ended up stopped going to school when I was twelve years old and I officially dropped out when I was fifteen years old and I started traveling the world not shortly after that. And when I started traveling, I actually met so many amazing people who were learning things and experience things in a completely different manner, in ways that I had never seen before, something that... my small town was not common at all, and I felt like wow, I've met my peats like these are my people for sure, and I decided that I wanted to dedicate my life to that. So fast forward to today and I have not stopped traveling. Basically, for twenty one years I have been traveling around the world. I have circumnavigated the globe over four hundred times. I've visited over a hundred and five hundred six countries, something like that. I've lived in nine countries and from the personal side, as we said earlier, I'm Canadian with Danish heritage. My wife is from mainland China. We met in Germany, we got married in Africa. My daughter was born in the Middle East, my son was born in Brazil and today, as I'm speaking to you, I'm in Panama. We have a home here in Panama. We have a few homes around the world and that's what I do. I help other people to move overseas. Now I do do it in a legal and tax efficient manner. I do the planning aspects. So I work very hard on the forty thousand foot view. But for the filing and everything like that, I work with a CPA who I partnered with. I work with lawyers who I've partnered with on these types of things. So I will often create the plan. Then we go okay, is it compliant, is it legal? Is it does it follow immigration? Does IT Follow Tax Law? And we'll do kind of a team based approach for all of my clients. So there might be a zoom call with a Panama lawyer, a US lawyer, a USCPA, me, the client and the spouse. We might have five, six people on a call and then tackle these types of problems. How do we do this? From the lifestyle, from the immigration, from the service provider, etc. Etc. Etc. And you can think of me as a quarterback. I've been doing this for a very long time. I have been very fortunate to learn of a lot of these things either through my own experiences or with mentorship or with an obscene amount of reading and studying and going through IRS websites, which is extraordinarily boring but kind of necessary. And Yeah, so I kind of put these things together. So I I would say I am a very unique person because I don't think this job, quote unquote, really exists anywhere else. I kind of created it out of thin air because I saw a need in the market place. That makes sense. That's a very long answer to the one question I had there. I could bet I appreciate it, because that gives me so many places to take this. Now, MC I'm very curious about a lot of that. Well, and earlier before the interview, you said, well, if you give really short interviews, it's going to be, you know, maybe like thirty minutes, sixty minutes. I'm like, I don't think you're gonna have a problem with that with me, because all good. Now it's you've given me a fantastic overview of where can diamond now so so interesting with with your family, where being born in different places, meeting in different places, coming from different backgrounds. I love that. But I want to dive in, maybe before this family even existed, and go back to that phase what you just met, people like yourself, as you described it, living in the sort of I guess you'd call it an alternative lifestyle at the time, back then, and maybe if I can timestamp this or maybe put an age on it, I'm guessing it might have been early s or something like that. Yeah, late teens. I think I started travel well, actually, I know I started traveling first time in the year two thousand. So that's how I know. It's very easy to count. Twenty one year. Okay, perfect. So at that stage in your life and your kind of having your eyes opened, was there a career path in mind for you back then, or a business idea that you might have had, or what was your thought? Not Futures, Oh Yarrow. No, I made every mistake into the books. I was just a vagabond and traveling around the world. For the first couple of years. I had a big red backpack and I was just traveling. I spent five months. Well, first trip was about them three weeks, four weeks in western Europe. Than I did five months in western Europe and in North Africa. I actually took a camel from Morocco for three days and went to Algeria on a camel and then turn around and came back. I had no idea what I was doing. I was just out there having adventure. I took eighteen months and hitchhiked through central and South America and two thousand and three, two thousand and four, something like that. So, yeah, I would hope you say that I had everything figured out way back then and I knew exactly what I was going to do for a living and how I was going to help people. But I was just a kid having fun, which begs the question then, how did you fund this? Was it a traditional we'd get a job working at a bar and a place you were, save some money take backpacking to the next spot? Is that pretty much how I went? Exactly like that, whatever random odd jobs like. Okay, first off the bat, I mean I started working when I was twelve years old. I was picking the weeds out of bean fields all summer long and that I was babysitting. When I was about fifteen, sixteen I was working at a grocery store. So I had money from those first working as a teenager type of thing, and then on the road I would stop. So I lived in New Zealand for twelve months, I lived in Australia for three years, I lived in Singapore for a year.

These places I worked. I'm an EXPAT. I don't really think of myself too much as a digital nomad because I often have a home base that I travel out from. So that, yeah, okay, I was in Australia for three years, but I went to Fiji five times, I went to Vanawatt to, I went to Tong Guy, went to Southeast Asia, I went to Hawaii, all over Australia, whole bunch of other random countries in the South Pacific, because that was easy for me. But no, I was working at whatever type of job would pay the most amount of money. I wonder if we cross paths when I was in my early T S in Brisbane, Australia and you would been working at a bar or something and I had no idea we'd be talking. Here we go, given what you now know and your expertise, if we can go back to that period. So even how does a Canadian, for example, get to stay for three years in Australia? You must have started to run up against these questions around residency, how to earn a living where you paying taxes. So was there a sense of gaining that skill set at that time in your life? That one is a yes because, okay, we can even track things earlier than that. I remember when I was a teenager and I started learning about taxation for the first time and I was like this is a giant scam. I don't want to support anything like this. So I started figuring out retirement accounts, putting all of my money into retirement accounts, and then I started pulling it out in periods of time where I had zero income, where I was traveling for a year straight. So I was already trying to gain the system and and find loop holes, legal loopholes on how to pay zero taxes. When I was in Australia, I went in as a was called a working holiday visa. So New Zealand and Australia did a working holiday visa. Then I had found a job a company who liked me and they wanted to sponsor me. So what happened was we went out a bridging visa. I actually went out of tourist visa then on a bridging visa that I applied for an at the time it was called a five seven, my skilled migrant worker visa. It's since been replaced with another type of migrant worker visa, but they had a short list of skills and we I went through that process. So I was already starting to figure out immigration work when I was in my early s and how these things work, how they fit together all of this and it was similar in Singapore and and how I ended up getting a job there through these types of things. So yeah, I was building up the skill set right from a teenage years, through my sir, through my s and I'm almost forty now. So yeah, okay, while you were doing all these travels, I mean at some point, I don't know, you're hitting twenty five years old, twenty six years old. Are you thinking I might have to at some point start a career path, or you thinking, know, the rest of my life I can just stream together jobs and living a year here and a year there in different countries around the world? What was your what was your mindset then? So I did have a career, but it's not the career that I'm in now and I don't really talk about it much because it's not relevant. But I did try many different things and I was not completely aimless by any means. Just things that did not work out or I fell flat on my face with. But I don't I I believe myself to be very purpose driven and very purposeful about everything that I do. So there's never been a moment in my life where I was lost or I didn't know what I was doing. Does that kind of makes sense? Yeah, makes sense. I'm going to assume you were like a male stripper back then. That's why it's not relevant to that magic joke. That's where I can't we go now. But Anyway, I can understand where you were developing a skill set, because did pay the bills and you know, you're probably happy and learning and you were able to travel. At some point, though, you must have gone. There must be a switch. I'm going to leave this career path and start entering I'm going to call it maybe consulting to start with out, maybe the take us for I don't know what time was the first time you ever supported someone else with the skills you had developed. And maybe I'm jumping head too far, like we're talking about taxes here, but residencies, is multiple passports, is a lot of variables to all of this too. So did you keep learning that as you continue to travel around the world? Absolutely okay, first of all, I mean my main skill set is how to live in another country. Now, you might not think of that as a skill set, but I promise you it is. There are so many mental things that you have to deal with, family adjustment emotions and languages and so many things. So that I have been doing nonstop, around the clock, twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, for twenty one years. So there's not many people, I think, who have done that. Okay, maybe they've moved to one country and they migrated there and they've lived there for many, many years, but building their lives in nine different countries in twenty one years. I think that that's a pretty rare skill set. Then I do have a background in finance. I got really geeked out in finance. I did trade options for seven years. So I...

...was in the derivatives market. I did very, very well in that and made a lot of money and was able to pivot from their. Personally, I don't trade derivatives anymore. I've switched my investment thesis a little bit, but I did have a solid chunk of my life during this where finance was a massive thing to me. I also tried other entrepreneurial ventures, like things in the fitness industry. I was big into fitness. I'm still big into fitness and health and biohacking in these types of things. I tried businesses like that. It was not what I wanted it to be. So it was a good learning opportunity and how to build a business, how to structure things, branding, etc. Etc. So I probably had a half a dozen of those, I don't know, mistakes, for lack of a better word. I wouldn't really call them mistakes because they're all opportunities to learn. But eventually I decided okay, well, what do I want to do? Well, I really like money, I really like finance and investing and entrepreneurship and I really like travel and living overseas. So, being the really creative person that I am, I went out there and created a podcast called the expat money show. Yes, I know, very original. I took my two favorite ideas and I joined them together and I made the business out of it. It really started as just as an opportunity to interview awesome people like Yarrow. You were on my show maybe three or four months ago and we had a great conversation and I got to learn so much from you. Well, I've had people like grant cardon on my show. I've had Jim Rogers, I've had Richard Maybury, who was a massive influence on my life. We've been doing the podcast for going on six years now, five six years, something like that, and I've had a hundred and seventy some odd episodes. So I've met so many cool people around the world and been able to pick their brains and learn from them and develop relationships with them. I just got back from three weeks in Columbia actually, where I was visiting a podcast guest. He was on the podcast maybe six or eight months ago and I wanted to strengthen that relationship. So I flew down there with my whole family, my wife and my kids and my mother and even our nanny. We brought them. We went down to Columbia for three weeks and traveled and built that relationship and learned from him. So yeah, so there's lots of pieces to this to bring us to kind of where I am today. Yes, I can look back and connect the dots. You know, this made sense. This made sense. That made sense, but at the time as I was doing it, no, I had no idea and I think anyone who is arrogant enough to tell you that they did is lying. True, life can be dynamic, so correct me if I'm wrong. Then does starting the podcast and you just going out there and just talking about how to live somewhere else and all the variables and things you'd learned about that. Did someone then just email you and say hey, could you help me do something with my own moving overseas, and then you went like yes, I can, and then you thought maybe there's a business here. Is that how it of all? Yeah, I think that I was already doing coaching and consulting for Business Development, helping other people to start businesses, because I had started several of myself. So I was already doing consultant and then consulting and then I pivoted more to helping people with this, but right at the very beginning I was doing consulting. Then a couple years in I got an offer to take over the largest offshore website in the world. It was a brand that has been going since the mid s with millions of followers. So I took that over for a couple of years. I actually joint ventured with the with the owners. Completely ran that. The book has is are the site has been featured in things like the four hour work week and things like that. So a very wellknown brand in the offshore space. I ran that for a couple of years. I took it from not a great business to a excellent business and revitalize the brand and everything. And then mine. If I just stop you on that one. It's Im I was curious and someone says you took him from this to this and I'm getting the impression you can't drop the actual name of the company. But regardless, what did you do to restart it and rebamp it? Wow, okay, it was a blog with a really crummy newsletter. I completely readid the newsletter, I redid the branding, I redid the color scheme, the tagline. I brought every think into focus of what the original idea of the concept was. It had turned into a mess of a million different things and I focused it back on the offshore market, so specifically tax planning, offshore structuring, international banking, golds and precious metals normally held in an offshore vault for in real estate, these types of core tenements for the offshore asset protection. These things I got rid of. Although there was a travel flavor, I wasn't like top ten things to do in this country...

...or how to have a great vacation in Disneyland. It's like this has nothing to do with what we're doing so there was tens of thousands of articles in there. We went through manually, one by one, and redid all of the SEO. Got Rid of all of the posts that were not performing, that had nothing to do with us, that were taking us in different tangents. We started writing cornerstone content, so we would do articles that were five thousand, ten thousand words long. We did internal linking for all of these. There was articles out there that had no images or it wasn't formatted correctly or they were broken links in there. I gutted it. They basically took the website back down to the skeleton and rebuilt it from scratch. I had a team of full time team just of writers and bloggers and SEO specialists to Redo all of this. But in two years Yarrow, I took us from I increase the organic Seo over five hundred percent. I did over six hundred percent, about six hundreds a hundred fifty percent of our email newsletter. I increased our open rate, our click through rate. I took it from I took it to a very profitable business. There were many things that I cannot disclose on this interview, but people will probably know the website or if you go out there and Google my name, you'll still see because I wrote literally hundreds of articles on there, which I believe are still the most popular articles on the website. So I think we get, I probably get about three million people a year who read my stuff right now on that website. Wow. Okay, so you definitely had not just an expat skill set, you had an online marketing scause. I would say those, those are my my hard skills, or I guess those are soft skills on digital marketing, copywriting, sales technology. I mean those are types of things that I developed over building multiple businesses, even if the businesses did fail. Okay, I got imagine you say failed to it's it probably wasn't like you were making some money from them, but you just decided you didn't want to keep going in that direction. Yeah, or if it wasn't a viable business model or we got halfway down the launch and decided it was going to be too much capital, or I couldn't. I mean, if I'm going to look at an idea, I don't really want to put anything into my business unless I see a very clear path to a million dollars. So if I have people who propositioned me every day on how to add something or rep them or affiliate for them. I mean, if I can't see a clear path to a million dollars, I am don't want anything to do. I'm not trying to create a job. I'm not a solo preneur or I want to be self employed or something. I'm not self employed. I mean I have a staff of Seven, eight people who work under me and depend on me. I need to produce. So there's an opportunity cost to everything we do. That makes sense. Okay, totally. So take us forward. So you took on this roll. You turn around this this big web presence online in the you said it was a overseas I guess, like an information site for people about moving overseas. Then you left that. At some point. Is that erect beginning of this year I terminated my contract. I said goodbye to my partners. We left on good terms. There was no animosity or anything like that. I still talk to the owners on a maybe not on a regular basis, but I still talk to them and still friends. And you know, when my son was born and they were setting me well wishes and everything. But I really know that having business partners is maybe not for me. Or if I'm going to have business partners, it has to be under a certain type of context. I'm I've a little bit hyper and I'm kind of do everything at once and I move really, really fast and if people can't keep up with me, then it can cause a lot of problems. So for me it didn't make sense to stay in that organization. I think I outgrew them very, very fast and I went back out on my own. So I revamp the podcast and now have branded everything expat money. So we have the EXPAT money for them. If you guys go to expat money for umcom, it will readirect you to our private facebook group. We have the EXPAT money show podcast, we have books, online programs, lots of different types of things, and then, of course, the consulting, which is what we've been chatting about today. Okay, yeah, I'd love to dive in more to the specifics of what you support people with. Before we do that, can we just go back like to talk about your family, if we may cover that part, because you mentioned all you met your wife in Germany, but she's from mainland China and remembering correctly, your two children are born different countries. How do you look at the whole aspect of the family, because most people expect when you meet someone, sure you might travel together for a while, but at someone you come home, wherever home might be, settled down. When you start making babies, that's it. You've locked yourself into...

...that place that you're you want your kids to go the same school, you want them to have a social life. Do you agree with all that or how have you structured your family life? have been told that since the day that I started traveling. People are like, Oh, this is great, Michael, do it while you're young, because when you get older you're not going to be able to do these because you're going to have a career or you're going to have kids or your school or everything in like that. Well, who's laughing now, because my kids are on the road with me. They've traveled a ridiculous amount. My daughter is five years old. She's been to fourteen or fifteen countries. She speaks three languages fluently. She speaks Spanish, English and Mandarin Chinese fluently, like near native level or native level with accent. With everything. She's now learning German. We homeschool our kids. We are a very international family and I've never found the need to conform to what other people think or believe that I should do for my family or for myself. So have and your wife obviously has to agree with with this sort of lifestyle choice. And maybe this is too early to answer the question too, because I'm guessing a five years old maybe when they start becoming teenagers. That's when, like Dad, I want to stay with my friends, I don't want to go to another country. But you'll kind of cross that bridge, you know, when you come to it. And you mentioned a nanny to so I'm guessing that certainly would help with just the extra support for helping with the kids and while you're running your business and doing everything. Is there anything that stands outlet might be a myth for the kind of regular society that has this belief around what you can and can do with a family that you feel just not true. Okay, well, I mean when I was growing up my parents told me, mchel you could do anything you want in the world. Now, as cliches is that sounds, and probably everyone was told the same thing, I actually believe them and I actually went out there and did it, and I think you can too, like everybody can. I think that there are strategies, there are tips, there's support and there's ways to do this. And and I don't think that you need to go out there and make every single mistake in the book, which is what I did over building up this knowledge base in this experience. You know, you can work with someone who has already gone through these mistakes. You know, I think it's a common misnomer where people say the best way to learn is from your mistakes. No, that's the worst way to learn. Learn from someone else's mistakes. If you can learn from someone else's mistakes, that is a massive shortcut. So I mean take me as an example. If you want to move overseas, you work with me, I will hand hold you and walk you through the process. I will save you a ridiculous amount of time, energy, effort, money, etc. ETC, etc. And I will make sure that you don't fall into the big pitfalls that happen. Are there going to be challenges? Yes, definitely, absolutely. I'm not saying that there will not be. It is a challenging thing, but you will have much better time working with someone who has already done this and then think, okay, if you're an entrepreneur, if you're starting a business, if you run a start up, well then, what is your time worth? Do you want to go out there and spend a hundred hours or five hundred hours or a thousand hours trying to research and learn and do all of these types of things? Say It was a thousand hours of research and trial and error? What do you make on an hourly basis, even if you were working a minimum wage? I think that it would st he'll be quite a lot of money. You're still talking tens of thousands of dollars. So do that type of math. If I can save you ninety percent of the time or ninety nine percent of the time, it's probably a very good exchange. Okay. Well, that's this dive into that I'd love to let's play a scenario Rut here. I'm someone with the family I want, I've got a business, I've probably got some net worth and in assets. I do want to move to another country. I'm completely open to anywhere, but my goals are obviously a good family life, but also a good tax structure, you know, good health system, all these kind of important things to me. How do I begin making this decision? And what's like a checklist of things I should be investigating and even if I was to work with you to ask you these questions. Okay, the I don't have an answer to that, and this is why, because I don't have nearly enough information. So, what are your hobbies? What do you like to do? What type of business is it? Where are your employees? Where is it structured currently? How is the tax situation? What was your taxable income last year? What about your spouse? What does she do for a living? Is She professionally hired? is she a doctor or a lawyer, where you have to have some type of a license for that type of things? How old are your kids? Do you have boys? Do you have girls? How many kids do you have? What is their school situation? Are they in private school, in International School already? Are they in Public School? Are they being homeschooled? Do they play sports? What are they are interests? I mean there's like Ninezero different details that we need to go through before I would ever make a recommendation. Okay, well, you get me a checklist sorts right...

...there we go. Else. Well, I just resettling off like a you know, a couple of dozen things that have popped to my head, but I mean literally, if I was sitting down with a client, we would go through a checklist and we would discuss and we would spend the first hour, two hours, three hours on the phone discussing all these things. I need to get to know you. This is not going to Walmart and picking out a sweater and a pair of slacks. This is going to a tailor and getting a custom made suit. Do you understand? HMM, yeah, away of putting a bit, assuming you have a set of criterion in place, what is the decision making process about? Is it mostly about lifestyle? Is it mostly tax structure? Like, how do you, because I know take my own situation. I would be like, okay, I don't want to pay taxes. Let's keep it simple. I want to minimize my taxes as much as I can. I expect to be selling a business or an asset in the future. They'll be capital gains there. I want to minimize that. That being said, I like the freedom to travel, but I also, like you, for many large blocks of time, want to stay in one place and have that consistency as well. But I'd like to optimize what I ready have. I guess I don't want to necessarily uproot everything and throw it all away, but I want to go where it's better taxes. I want to go all the things. I want the best weather at the best time of year, I want the best financial system, people who are open to cryptocurrencies and not trying to shut them down, say, like China. You know all these kind of things. So how do you it's a hard question answer. I can imagine this. It's so bespoke to each individual. But is there even like the three biggest things you have to decide or something like that? Okay, so first off the bat, there's no such thing as kind of going half off shore. I mean you're either going to go off shore or you're not going to go off shore, at least to get the type of benefits. Yes, you can open a offshore structure or an offshore bank account, but to really get a lot of the advantages you really have to go off shore. So it's not like, Hey, I would really like to live in Los Angeles and but I would like to move my business overseas and pay zero taxes. No, that's called tax fraud. You're going to end up in a orange jumpsuit. We don't mess with that type of stuff. We just don't. I mean we don't play in the gray area and we certainly don't play in the black area. I mean this is all white labeled, completely legal type of structures that we do. But yeah, as I was saying, we would look at all of these types of things. Now I do have clients who come to me, hire me for consulting. We look at everything and you know what, at the end of the day they decide, you know, it's too much work, or it doesn't fit my lifestyle or I have aging parents that I don't want to leave, so maybe it's not for me, or maybe I thought my timeline was twelve months from now and it's actually five years from now. So I help you to make these types of decisions and it doesn't always have to be picking up everything and leaving. You know, we do this risk to reward benefit, this cost analysis, these, all these types of things. And then the countries themselves. A lot of it is a very personal so it can be at a heart issue. We can deal with. Certainly, all right, if you come to Costa Rica or Belize or Panama, we can have you pay zero taxes. But if we get you to Columbia or Brazil. I'm just naming countries. I spent a lot of time in this year. These countries. You will be paying taxes, but the lifestyle we much better and the cost of living is so much lower that you will still end up ahead. There's these different types of mix and match. Maybe it's spend a hundred eighty three days in Panama, three months in Portugal and three months in Thailand, and you're not a tax resident of Portugal and you're not tax resident of Thailand, but you are of Panama and we follow a territorial tax system and therefore we get rid of the Panamanian tax. And then how do we deal with the state tax in the United States? How do we deal with the federal tax in the United States? Okay, is there any other countries who claim tax residency for you or you have a tax home? How do we deal with all of these types of things? So you know, I'm kind of answering these yarrow in a roundabout way, but I'm just trying to make you understand that there are a million and one different possibilities here and it is really based on the clients exact needs. So I'd really be remissed to kind of go, Oh, this is what you do or this is the best solution. I mean, that's not responsible of me at all. Got It now. I'm in. It makes complete sense. It's why your service exists, even because you need to have that broad scope of the potentialities to then present here's the options. Now, knowing what I know about you, let's look at the pros and cons of each one and then you can come to a decision. Where do you want to live? This is where you will be paying taxes. I know you. You're doing a great job of being specific without being specific. Can we look at just, I guess, the the the core structure questions, because I and you don't give me...

...specific places that you would choose. But are you deciding between where's my company incorporated? Where's my bank accounts set up? Where do I list a residency for me as an individual? Way Do I pay personal taxes? I'm just reading off things I know I currently have as a Canadian. These are all in Canada for me, but if I was going to shift off shore, I believe I'm taking all those things and then moving them to one or several countries and then I would live in these places. Is that a rough list and I'm missing anything? That's a very good list. So let's handle these kind of one by one. So say that I do have a client to me, I'll tell you about the tracks, as I call all them, that I take people on. So normally with a client we're going to be looking at a second residency. So common ones are Panama, where I am today, Brazil, Columbia, Mexico, Costa Rica, Nicaragua, Belize, these types of countries. In the America's also Equador, but it doesn't work for a law for a number of reasons, namely how long you have to stay in the country. In Europe, we might be looking at things like Greece or Italy, Portugal, which has actually a nondomicile tax systems called nondominant. It's a tax break for your first ten years. We it is possible to do residencies in a number of other countries in Europe, but some of the tax systems there are horrendous, like Spain. A lot of people have probably heard of the Spanish gold and visa. They have one of the most abusive and aggressive tax authorities in the world. So it's not somewhere that I usually recommend, but it is an option. I do have literally a client this week who contacted me that they have family in Spain and would love to make that part of the the overall structure of things. So we're looking at that. So that's one track. is is your residency. That can be a paper residency that we can be where you actually live. And and just so we're understand, a residency is a what we would call a permanent residency in this context. So this is the legal right to live and work in the country. There would be some type of minimum stay in the country, whether that be one day or one week or one month or of six months or three hundred and sixty five days, which are are the cases in some countries. So we would look at some type of either a temporary residency that leads to permanent residency or a direct permanent residency. Second of all would be a second citizenship, especially for my high net worth individuals. You can think of citizenship as not just the travel document that we know as a passport, but I mean it's also the legal right to live and work in the country and think of it as political insurance. If you don't like what your government is doing and you want to leave, you can go to another country, you can travel on that document, you can participate in their social programs, etc. Etc. We do these normally through citizenship, by investment, but we can also do it through naturalization. We can do it through birth tourism. For example, in my case we did birth tourism for Brazil. We flew down to Brazil, my son was born there. He is now a Brazilian citizen as law, as well as other citizenships we have through through family ties. And then, because I'm the legal guardian of a Brazilian citizen, I can apply for my what's called the family reunification visa and I can get my permanent residency there with a fast track to Brazilian citizenship. So once I go down there and live there for two years, I can get my Brazilian citizenship and my daughter can get hers an even faster track. It's a one year to citizenship. So these are things that most people have have no idea like. You can't go to an accountant or a lawyer and ask these things. Even immigration lawyers will not have any idea about these things because they're going to specialize in the country that they live in, normally just the country they were born in. So a US immigration lawyer will understand immigration laws for people trying to enter the United States. They are most likely going to have absolutely no idea on how to go to Brazil or Costa Rica or Panama or any of these countries. I do because I done it and I work with the local representation in all of these countries. I've gone down to there, I've used their services. I'm like the giant Guinea pig who tries all of these types things. I know who are the good people and trustworthy and who is the scammers and doesn't respond promptly to emails and have had problems in the past and their licenses are not up to date. I know these types of things because I've had to work with them. So those are two of the first paths. Then we'll work with on the tax paths. So how are we dealing with your state tax? How are we dealing with the federal tax? How are we dealing with the tax of the country that your new citizenship isn't how are we dealing with the tax of the new residency that you're living in? All of those types of issues we might look at. Where are you going to live? So real estate in the country that you're in, whether... are renting or buying. Are you going to rent it and only spend part of the year there? Are we going to put it up on long term or short term vacation rentals? are going to put it up on AIRBNB? What are the taxes in implication? Property taxes, holding taxes, all of these transfer taxes, stamp duty, what are those look like? Do you want to buy multiple properties? What are the currency how are you transferring the currency down to these countries? If you're buying in a Brazil and it's the Hei and you're sending from the US dollar, is it a good time to transfer right now? Is it a bad time to transfer right now? Are you transferring through your bank? Are you doing it through a currency brokerage house? What does all of that look like? There's the banking. So what type of offshore bank account are you using? Are Using the bank account in the new country that we got your residency and citizenship in? Are you doing it at a Caribbean country? What are their card programs like? Do they have savings programs? Do they have online banking at all? You might be surprised. There are still lots of banks out there who do not have online banking. You might actually have to facts documents in do you want to deal with that? So many things, so many pieces of the puzzle, but that's the type of tracks that I would take people on to work through this. Okay, so we got residency, I've got passport, we've got banking, we've got tax structure. Yeah, it's a pretty good list, I guess. So you have llcustration IBC's, you have foundations, you have trusts, so any type of actual structure. We have gold vault. How is the gold vault held? Personal name or through a structure? We have cryptocurrency. We have merchant accounts, we have brokerage accounts, all of these, where are they structured? What is the tax implications? What are the legal requirements? If you're a US citizen, are you allowed access to this? What are the filing requirements from the US side? Do you have to file an FBAR? What other forms does it have to be filed with the Treasury or with the IRS? A million and one things. Sorry to overwhelm you, but okay, no, it's fantastic. This is that's the specificity that I like to hear. I want to be as specific as possible without actually giving any recommendations, because I just can't like. I just like, I just I just don't like legally and I have no idea what your situation is. So I just can't know totally understand, and you're giving us the context in which two then go and approach this decisionmaking process, and that that's really what I would love to do on this podcast. So I appreciate that. It sounds like and maybe we can connect this with the final piece of the puzzle, which as a motivation to do all of this. I know most people approach this and go, you know, I just like to pay less taxes, or I'd like you said, I'd like to be living somewhere warm during the colder months and I want to go back to my home country and, you know, the warmer months. That's where it starts. And then obviously you open this Pandora's box of what you've just already described a potential places of all these different things. What then becomes the right motivation or mayor should be saying the right person to act actually go through with all of this? Is it really just high net worth individuals. Who is it all right? What I find is that most people will benefit from these types of things. Now, the degree that you're going to go into it can be based on your net worth. I specifically for consulting work with high net worth individuals, because they're the ones who can afford to pay tens of thousands of dollars in consulting fees. If your annual income is Fiftyzero, it probably doesn't make sense to hire me on a one on one basis. But that doesn't mean that there are not ways that I can help you. For example, we have the community we have the expat money form where you can ask questions. We have a podcast with over a hundred and seventy episodes where we have talked in detail on immigration issues and banking issues and merchant accounts and all these things on every single episodes. I have episodes that have gone for two and a half hours. These are like master classes on just one of the things that I've discussed here today. So there's things like that. I have a daily email newsletter where I'm writing about my experiences, so you'll be able to actually see firsthand what these things look like. I talked about how I've helped people or the changes that they have made. So, even if you come from a modest income background, there are still things that you can do. But let's take all of the monetary issues or tax issues and just put them aside for a second. There is also the personal issues, or the personal advantages, I should say, for doing these types of things. So, first of all, it's a lot of fun to live overseas. It's exciting and you get to meet all kinds of new, cool interesting people. You get to learn a new language and you get to become bilingual in a lot of cases, and you get to use it in real life circumstances, not just sitting in a classroom like you did in high school and repeat after me type...

...of things. I mean you can learn a new language then go out to the bar and order your drinks and make friends and like I have a buddy that I go and shoot pool with and we speak in Spanish the whole time and we drink and chew pool and I beat the crap out of them in pool and we laugh about it and joke about it in Spanish. I mean that's just a cool experience from someone who comes from a monolingual culture. There is the family aspect. Earlier you asked about the kids or the schooling or things like that. I would invite you not to look at these things as a negative but as a huge benefit. Look at the education you're going to be able to give your child by them living overseas and being multilingual and putting themselves in situations where they have to make friends with people from all over different all over the world, in different cultures and religions and food and history and perspective and how other people think. That's a bonus. That's not a negative, that's not a that's not something that you need to be worried about. That's a gift you're going to give your child. I mean, I certainly know that it is for my kids and for all these expacts that I work with and people in the expact community. This is a huge thing that we're excited about. I mean, instead of your kid just reading about things in a book, you actually get to take them there and they get to see it with themselves, with their own eyes. That's amazing. Now for your spouse, you asked earlier. You know your wife must already be quite advent adventurous well, she is. She was already traveling along. But even if your spouse is not, think about this as an opportunity to bond with your spouse as you go through difficult things, as you go through challenging things, that actually can, in a lot of cases, strengthen your marriage. I know that me and my wife have a really fantastic relationship because we've lived in multiple countries and we've had to change and uproot things and figure out all this logistics. We had to count on one another and I know that I can count on her because she's shown the me that and she knows that I am a stable and I'm good provider and I can, although I have lots of crazy ideas, I actually follow through. She knows that I will be there when times get difficult, when things get difficult, so that can strengthen relationships. You're going to be able to make new friends. You have just I mean, you're all. I could go all day long about all the advantages for this type of lifestyle and why I really think it is the best vehicle for free them and liberty. How good answer, my mcall. I appreciate that it you're painting a lovely picture obviously I'm a converted traveler, so I don't need to be sold on that. But the lifestyle aspect of it is it's not just about saving money, so I do appreciate you highlighting that, but to return some money. I do have a question that I do like to like ask my guests as we move towards the end of the interview, and this is, I think, especially interesting for a man like yourself, who is so aware of opportunity across the entire planet, which, let's face it, not everyone is. How do you invests and use your money, like I obviously you have a consultancy and a family to support, but outside of that, are you pouring into crypto? Are you buying property all over the world? Are you buying other businesses? What's your kind of lifestyle in terms of investing those yes, yes, yesn't yes, yes, yes, and yes, okay, Yarrow. What I think is the big trend and what I think that people should do, and what I am doing with my own is that I believe a lot of walls are being built in the world right now and they're going up everywhere, and I don't necessarily think that they're just country based. I think that a lot of it is cultural. I think that we're going to see a resurgence of a lot of cultural divides around the world. So I'm trying to make sure that I have investments, bank accounts, companies, money, gold, real estate, homes on the other side of these walls. So, for example, we own several properties in China. My wife is friend mainland China. We've had these in place for many years. China has already had has always had walls up for many, many years, but they are strengthening. I want to make sure that I have stuff assets on the other side of this. We are seeing that Russia, Russia former USS are are completely different than the US on how they're viewing these types of things and there are walls being put up there. There is a lot of talk of Russia having their own Internet going forward. I think that we're going to see massive problems in the Internet. I think that we're going to see a real fracturing of the Internet. So I want to make sure that I'm on I have assets and opportunities on the other side of that. I think that having a home in Brazil. Brazil is one country in South America, but there are as many people and Brazil and Portuguese speakers, as they are for the rest of South America combined. So although it is... country, it is a big country, it is a giant country. We are buying a home there next year. We have all we have a place here in Panama, we have in China, we're getting in Brazil. Were setting up different things in many different aspects areas of the world. were buying a place in Turkey next year where we will get citizenship there. I think that we're going to see a resurgent of the Ottoman Empire. So we will have properties there and assets there and furniture and stuff. It hard a hard things, tangible things and bank accounts and currencies. I mean their currency, the Lera, is pretty terrible. But if we are have rental properties and we're earning it and we see a bounce back, it could be a very smart move. I have gold stored around the world, coins, bars, collectors items, these types of things. That's how I'm looking at it as how do I protect myself and my family? I don't think that people need to be as crazy as I am and as obsessed and do everything that I am doing. As I said earlier, I'm a guinea pigs. So I try a lot of these things and that I write about it and then I speak about it. I'm not an armchair traveler by any means. I really go out there and try this things. But even if you guys start with one thing and then you know when that's completely you do another one and then another one. At the end of a couple of years, you'd be surprised how many things you can have in place. And for me it helps me sleep better at night knowing that my family is protected. I like this type of stuff. I'm a delayed gratification kind of guy. I'm okay with saving and investing. I don't need everything right this second. I can think ahead five years, ten years, twenty years. Like I said, I'm pretty young guy. I've got young kids. I'm thinking what is like going to be like for them, what is going to be life like for their kids? So that generational wealth planning and how are things going to be structured in the future? If doors are open right now, then I want to go through, because when the doors close, that's it. I mean, I don't break the law and I don't help anyone to break the law. So these are the time to do these things. You know, if Covid taught us anything, I think it will teach us this. So just to clarify, understand what you're saying about doors closing. But to own property in all of these different places, is that purely because you want to? It's like diversification. You're putting assets into different economies. But is there an additional reason politically to your politically around that, to like you can't qualify for something if you don't have a property in all these different countries? Okay, that's a multifaceted question. So let's take Turkey, for example. Turkety Turkey does a citizenship by investment program. It's a real estate purchase. It can be purchased anywhere in the country. Obviously, Istanbul is probably the first place that people would think of. It's where I want. I've been there multiple times. I like the culture, I like the food, I like all these types of things. I want to get Turkish citizenship. I think that an investment in Istanbul and rehabbing it will be a good investment. I think it will be an asset producing or a cash flowing asset for for my portfolio, so I can double up on those types of things. I think that we will say, as I said, a resurgence of the Ottoman Empire. So I want to have access to those. Now, with the passports that I have, maybe I can get in today, but maybe I can't get intomorrow to some of these countries. So a passport is the negotiation between two countries for being able to go there or not. Now, US used to have a fantastic passport. I would challenge you guys to go and look where it stits on the rankings. Right now, US citizenship holders are not welcome in a lot of countries right now because of covid because of diplomatic relations, because of war, a lot of things that people just can't go to. So there's that. We have strong ties to China. As I said. My wife was born and raised in mainland China. Her first language is Mandarin. My Kids Speak Mandarin. There's a ton of opportunities there and there's a ton of negative things. They're that we have to keep our eye on, but it's somewhere that we normally spend. We usually go to three four times a year. We usually spend at least one, two, three months in China every single year. So having our own home there, with our own stuff, with our own bank accounts where we're paying in the local currency, not in always having to use in overseas credit card and get paid, get charged, all these types of things from the privacy. Okay, yes, the Chinese government to going to know what we're doing, but the local government here in Panama will have no idea where I'm spending my money. Visa and master chird will have no idea. So there's that. We go to Ukraine next year. I'm very excited. Ukraine is your heritage, so I'm really excited to see what that is like and visit Russia and visit some of the former USS our countries. What is that going to look like? I want to open a bank account, if I like it the there. Maybe I'll purchase a property there, so if things do go worse than I might be able... pick up another residency through that. Does that make sense and makes sense? How is your Manderin? I probably know about two or three hundred words. I know enough to know when my wife is talking crap about me to my my wife and my daughter, when they're like gossiping, you know. But you know, I can kind of follow along and I know enough to get myself out of trouble with my wife. If I make up a steak or if I say if I put my foot in my mouth, I can apologize to her and tell her how beautiful she is and I love her in Chinese and that's awesome. Okay, I'M gonna wrap it up. Okayl you're obviously a guy with a wealth of knowledge. So if we do want to, well, first of all work with you. What's the best way to get in touch for that? Okay, if you are high net worth individual, if you're running a start up, if you want to do these in a tax efficient manner, than just email me directly at it's Michel am I KK L at Expat Money Dot I. Oh. I encourage you guys all to follow along on the podcast. If you go to expat money showcom or Google podcast, apple podcast, stitcher radio, basically anywhere that popular podcasts are found, and you type in expat money show, you're going to find me there. Otherwise, you can grab my book on Amazon. It's called EXPAT secrets. How to pay zero taxes, live overseas and make giant piles of money. Super Humble title. I know I'm a very humble guy. That's how I rule, you know, so pick that up. I was very fortunate went to a number one best seller. We've sold tens of thousands of copies and helped a lot of people with it. But that's it. Happy to help anywhere I can. Guys right anyway I can. Fantastic list of resources and obviously the PODCAST is a great starting point too. If you just want to dive into your your all these master classes, as you called them, by the book, go to the PODCASTS and then get yourself to become a high individual and can work with Michael directly. That's it, Macau. Thank you for joining me. Any other last word you want to throw in before we hit that stuff? But no. Last thing I will mention is on the school side. We've recently created an online program for high school students. It's actually a junior juniors program, middle school and high school. So if you guys are in international family and you're looking for a solution for education for your kids, you guys can go to expat money dot ioh. My partner has over thirty years experience in education. He worked in Monessori schools. It is a phenomenal option for anybody from the education space for their kids ages eight to nineteen. You guys can find out more at expat money dot I. Oh, that's a big project I have on the go and my real passion project. So happy to help you guys from that aspect as well. But otherwise good gray, I hope enjoyed that interview with Michael Thor up and you're going to dive into some of the resources that he mentioned. Obviously he's got his podcast, he's got his blog, he's got information about schooling. So if you're considering being an expat and maybe home schooling or other aspects around Educy, getting your children if you do decide to travel and live in other countries, and of course, if you are a high net worth individual and you are looking to make a move soon, definitely get in touch with someone like Michel because you're probably at thinking about all these things. How can I reduce your tax burdon? How can you potentially get a new residency, a second passport? What about buying property? What about setting up your company overseas? Where the best places for bank accounts, all these basic things, you can talk to him get the right structure in place and begin the process of making that move, even if you're not a high net worth individual. I hope you took something away from this and are planning potentially for your own future. Remove if you do become a digital nomad, some of these things might come into play as well. Think about it. If you decide to leave your home country and you keep traveling, you could potentially get a residency where your at tax right will be far less than if you're living in some of the high tax places. If you're okay with the idea of moving or continually traveling, or maybe you're just looking for a new place to call home, that is obviously a common thing to do and exciting idea. I've often thought about living in other countries. I have in fact left Australia and move to Canada. I just spent some time living in Ukraine and San Francisco as well. I love living in new places and I love the way mckel talks about it and how he's done it in his own life. Actually moving to a place for a year, two years, three years, really immersing yourself in the culture and then you know, maybe you stay or maybe you keep moving on when you're ready it's a great way to experience the world and it's a certainly a big planet. There's a lot of places to go, a lot of amazing cultures to discover the food and if you can get some benefits around your business and financial structures, hey, why not do so? That's going to be it for me. I hope you enjoyed this episode with mchael. It's not the most common topic. We probably won't find many guests or even capable of talking about this topic and certainly supporting people to the degree that Michel can, for the obvious reason he is the Guinea pig. He keeps experimenting, keeps learning about new visas, new ways to get passports, new investment opportunities, and I thought his advice towards the end was actually pretty sound about more walls going up. So it was interestingly here his strategy around where he's...

...buying property as well. Okay, if enjoy this episode, please subscribe to vested capital this hit the plus or the follow or the subscribe button in any of the apps you might be using. Itunes, apple, apple, it tunes, Google's player in the APP store. There's an Amazon player, there's audible, there's all kinds of individual podcast apps as well. Any of those. Please subscribe and when you do so you'll see all the previous episodes, not just the previous thirty episodes of the new vested capital show, but another fifty episodes I selected as the best from my previous show when it was called Yarrows podcast, and entrepreneurs journey as well. So over eighty episodes you can go through now on this feed of great entrepreneurs, great investors and very smart people like mckel. Okay, that's it from me. My name is yarrow and I'll speak to you on the next episode of vested capital. Bye. By.

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