Vested Capital
Vested Capital

Episode 1 · 1 year ago

(EP1): Mark Asquith Captivate.fm Founder, The Podcast Industry For Startups, How To Focus On Multiple Projects

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Mark Asquith, otherwise known as the 'British Podcast Guy' is the founder of several podcast related companies, including Captivate.fm, a web hosting, analytics and distribution SAAS for podcasters.

Mark, like many entrepreneurs, got his start with an agency doing general web and media development services. Eventually this led to a spinoff podcast specific web design company, which Mark and his Co-Founder left the agency to focus on.

After entering the world of podcasting Mark never looked back, launching his own shows, attending conferences and building more support services for podcasters. He also has plans for a team engagement tool, which he recently patented and will be launching soon.

I wanted to speak to Mark because there is a difference between running an agency and building websites, to then diving into the world of SAAS and now also physical products. 

It's not easy to make all these different types of business models work, but as you will hear in the interview, Mark had a method and a plan for moving from one focus to the next, allowing a business to grow, adding a team, then moving on to the next step.

Enjoy the interview.

Yaro

Podcast: https://www.yaro.blog/pod/
Blog: https://www.yaro.blog/

Hello, this is Yarrow Star. I can welcome to a vested capital episode one. This is the first episode of my new rebranded show featuring a guest. His name is Mark Aske with. He is the founder of captivate DOT FM and rebel base media. We're going to talk about mark's history, how he started a whole bunch of different businesses, including an agency, a podcast, Web Design Company and his most current and the business that I really got involved with, called captivate dot FM, a hosting and Statistics Platform for podcasters. I am in the process of experimenting with different new tools for this brand new version of my podcast. If you are just it, of course, you can hear the story behind why I change the name of my show. It used to be called the Arrow podcast and before that, the entrepreneurs journey podcast, going back fifteen years. You can still listen to what I believe are some of the best episodes from those shows in the feed of the show you're listening to now. So I popped fifty plus episodes that I thought were the most relevant for this new topic of vested capital. Going forward. Some great guests and if you go back to the previous episode just before this, one episode zero of vested capital, you will hear my background story around how I've built capital, what kind of businesses I've started, how I've invested in so on. I gave you a bit of a primer as we dive into this new topic with guests, beginning today with mark. So you're going to learn about mark and how he's started both his agencies, his web design podcast design site, how he marketed them and also how he's built team's grown as company and chosen what to do. He's a one of those multifaceted entrepreneurs who likes to do different things. So if you're a like that and you also want two different things, you might gain a little bit of insight from what mark has done with his own career. And, of course, if you're in the podcasting space at all, this will be interesting to you as well. So I'll press play on that episode in just a second. First of all, I want to mention I'm not going to really call it as sponsor because I don't really feel like that's the appropriate label for this, but it is my company. It's called INBOX donecom. I'm going to say that the best the capital show is brought to you by inbox done, at least for this episode. Inbox done is a service where we take over managing your email for you. So if you're drowning an email, perhaps you're drowning in support desk tickets, customer support tickets. You need someone do I to step in and take over up to eight hundred and ninety, even a hundred percent of your email. And when I say that I mean replying to your messages, not just organizing them, but actually replying to them. Then we can help. It's called Inbox donecom a cofound of the company a number of years ago, and I'd love to help you if you need some help with email. Okay, that's it for my little spiel about my company. And here is the episode today with mark asked with hey mark, so thanks for joining me. We were just talking behind the scenes there about your podcast hosting company. I'm actually using Riverside, which is the podcast streaming platform when you won your my first guest on this platform. But love to learn so much about you, mark, and I'm bringing you on Solis the first guest because, I'll be honest, captivate your hosting distribution service for podcasts. I was making this choice about what platforms to use, including Riverside. You came up your friend of a few mutual friends, David Bain, Chris Ducker, and yeah, I just thought to be great to get you on the show a to talk a little about the tech behind podcasting, but be you as a founder of obviously tech, the podcasting company and just everything in your background. So maybe you could first of all give me a summary, you might be along, summary of what is everything you're involved with right now. Good question. So we thanks for having me. It's a real pleasure. I'm delighted to do this. So what I do now is I run a number of different businesses in podcast in all various stages in their life cycle, and we'll perhaps get to the original business in podcasting, because that's a quite an interesting story. That leads to captivate and a few others. But just to very quickly summarize...

...it, Karen and I, my co found a we're collectively known as rebel based media. I can see on the video version of this that you've got an att there behind you, but we are also star wars geeks. See you're not side guy. I like. How is arguing with my hours find cast cohost I do feel a bit like a trader because I'm actually a treky before and a star wars person. It just I happened to have with on the wall, but I like it's like that smooth yeah, yeah, and it's you know, the company that we run is is, is kind of is named after the rebel base on on the Havin and so on. So we're kind of Geeks at her here and I care and I geeks at heart and we build business. As you know, we use our collective to really kind of test ideas out and then when, when we when we decide that we enjoy one or we get some traction, when we spin that out into a specific business, recruit the team in, let them help us to scalee it and really build business by a business. We've done that a few times in podcasting. So what I do now is I run captivate dot FM, which is the hosting platform that we talked about. So that's a world class hosting, analytics and distribution platform for podcasts. Are On the original business podcast websites, which is sort of like a WP curve style platform or service just for podcasters. We've got an education membership that we're just transitioning into something to do with captivate. And we also run an interaction tech start up, which is a pure sort of, you know, punt of a start up, as most startups are, which is purely around audience engagement and interaction in podcasting. And I podcast as well about star wars and podcast about podcasting and speak at events and write in places and so on. So that's what I do and I'm fully in the podcasting industry. That's my daily job. So yeah, it's what I do every damn. I'm okay. Is it fair to say they'll captivate is the big one in that sort of collection of companies? Yeah, but I think so captivate is is certainly the one that people, people know, is the most foreign that people you know, most people use. You know, it's a hosting platform and I think every podcast needs a hosting platform, of course. So it's certainly the one that stood necessity in the podcasting stack. The other ones to sort of Nice to have some people. So people do know is for captivate, even though that's one of the youngest businesses, it's the one where we help the most podcasters and it's one where we make the most noise right now because we're just always releasing features, so inevitable there's more noise that comes with that. So yeah, captivate certainly the one that people recognize for now. I was actually curious with captivate, as a call it, as Sass, I believe. I mean it's definitely a software platform that you pay a subscription for. I spent like a few days over the last week getting familiar with everything. You know, it's got analytics on your downloads. Obviously it's got all the settings to control each individual episode that you upload. Lots of bells and whistles around the hosting and distribution of your show just to control the variables and make it easier to share. I love the fact that it creates a sort of a website, like a version one point of a podcast website that you could totally run with as your main website for your podcast. So that's all like. It sounds like a lot of things going on, and I can imagine, as a lentrepreneur myself who has attempted several times to build software based companies, the engineering that goes on behind these companies can be a challenge to say the least. So is there like who is your team with captivated, and how hard is it being to grow this type of software company versus a media company like a podcast, which, let's face it, as a podcaster it's a lot easier. You record a file, you uploaded, anyway you go, there's no programming and so on. Yeah, it's a deep kind of approach to this as well, Yarrow. So we here now. I've got very specific model, l...

...will, who we're very fortunate you know, will probably get to the background of things in in a little while, but you'll see so when we get to that, that my background fords me the chance to be able to do certain levels of coulde. In certainly front end code, and got a decent eye for design and I'm really kind of, you know, aheading product and brand strategy, as Kre and is a through and through programmer. So when you put those two heads together, that's why we're able to create things like rubber base media, where we can take a product and sort of prototypic get it to version one. So captivate as you see it today was, you know, outside of some of the more later additions to the team, it was pretty much built by Ken and I over the course of two thousand and nineteen, really the early stage of two thousand and nineteen, from January two thousand and nineteen to the launch in August. We've got a first user in April, which was the in Anderson Gray, and then and then launched into beater in August, and that that was here and I you know, we built the thing up and we've spent countless nights sat around a table saying, you know what, let's scrap this and move to something else, and let's scrap how this create episode page looks and just start from scratching. We literally just did that all ourselves and it's only now that we've got the team and our model is to kind of go from zero to one and then hire the team in, you know, firstly bolstered by support, and then some engineers. Then more recently I had a design and a digital marketing manager. And you know, when we look at what's coming next for captivate, the the the version to which is is going to be launching very, very soon. Actually it's going to be launching in June two thousand and twenty one, and that is such a platform like it has everything that captivate holds true and deer, which is the ease of use and everything that you'd expect from from the brand. But it's like a real platform, whereas when I log into captivate now, it's just me thinking this is the thing that Kier and I built that Wednesday night. You know, we built the single promo link. We just built it on a Wednesday night with a curer and it was like this weird things. So the founding team were really the engineers and the builders and the marketers. Now we were, you know, not taking that lightly and not saying that flippantly, we were very fortunate to have had what I call sort of a bridging business in podcasting. So we wed our original word press business in podcasting, which we still run to this day. It's a great business and a fantastic service, but we'd sort of being afforded the hands to have a few years in the industry where we speak at events, where we would, you know, we travel and would be around speaking at podcast movement and podfest produce in our episodes, speaking to podcasters. So kind of by proxy, we done so much user research. So there is sort of as a potential for it to sound a little bit Flippan, want to say, well, we just hearing an eye on on a nighttime building. It did the the pre work that we done by proxy of the other business is not to be underestimated. That was the thing that we really got lucky with because we were just able to gather that Intel very, very early on. But yeah, that's that's how we got there and we know, from a founders perspective, we sets. We actually set three very specific things up when we built the business, and I think this is interesting from a business death perspective. We said that the three, the three things that we were going to use a sort of benchmarks for scaling were we weren't going to introduce things like annual plans until we'd hit a certain MRR threshold so that we could bolster the bottom line and not require funding. The second thing that we did was we said that we will always be in support. You know we will. We will just we will be there in support. That will be our number one priority. And then the third thing, when we do eventually begin to hire, which we started doing late two thousand and nineteen, the first thing that we would hire would be support and we'd really put turn up that experienced part of it. So yeah, that's that's a bit of the background on how we got from that, that kind of nothingness to it, to a launch. It was some late nights run and those some arguments. You know, I can imagine it. I'm glad to hear about the focus on support.

As you know, I run in box done, which is all about doing your email, your customer support, and I think that is one of the first things you need to handle, except with a software company you have to start with something software or later there's no point you have nothing to support. So let's go back in time, because I can really feel in your case, mark, there's a lot of connecting the dots between projects here. There's a real sense of one leading to the other. Obviously you're known as the British podcast guy, so born and raised somewhere on the islands. There's that correct? It is. Yeah, do so much travel, but we're right here and now we just moved actually more into the middle of England, and I should add that I got that sort of Monica from the early days of podcast move when I used to travel out. I'd like be the only English guy there and people could never remember my name. They used to confuse it with mark or mat or someone else, and it was do you described to me that? People would always just say, well, which ones he is? That British podcast guys, that British Can Tho. Well, that demands available, so we'll have that. I've been the guy hair, I've been trilling with the Canadian accent. It's easier for us to just have one thing that people know. It's fine, that's it. So we should be agree. Really is podcast remembers you exactly exactly. I'm grateful for that and it's that sort of testament that use a research that I mentioned earlier, that sort of testament to, you know, some of the friendships that are built very, very early on in podcasting. Podcasting still a very small ecosystem, despite have been a multibillion dollar industry now. You know when I when I got into in two thousand twenty thirteen, it was, you know, there was a hundred eighty thou podcast versus two point one million that there is today. And that sort of connect to something that you mentioned as well, Yarrow, which is that connection of the dots, you know, the past life connecting to podcasting and to where we are now. It was around that time that that transition started to happen. So my old life was an agency and you know, we built this this small agency in Barnsley in England where we you know, we were very focused agency. We'd we acquired a printing come in a photography company and, you know, we were working on the standard kind of website builds, you know, the five fifteen ground website builds, and then started to build software for education and do branding work for some of the big brands in the world and ended up doing covers for like New York Times and all this. So we saw scaled this agency. What what you remember? But then was that? Sorry, what year did you start that? So we started that in about two thousand and eight and that time period where it's scaled it was around was around two thousand, two thousand and fourteen, which sort of segued with the podcasting. There was that kind of that kind of dovetail between the Ourmon in world. My show, my first soceris and on my show was two or five. So I and like I don't know how many podcasts existed in two thousand and five. Not many. Just to I just love to know the really really early day. So you in two thousand and eight in Barnsley you're starting an agency. was there any like of prior to that, any kind of successful business, or were you I don't know how all you are a mark at it. If you're a young lad, you know, going university before that or not? Better, what was the growing up like? Yeah, I wish I was young. I just I wear the hat so I can hide de Gray. I was in about two thousand and eight. I was what I was twenty six years old, and the stories is a little bit bizarre actually. I so I dropped out of college. So I left school, dropped out of college. I was I didn't really have much money as a kid. Some money was a real, big defining thing for me. And when I got to college I was at music college and if anyone's watching the video this, you'll see the musical stuff behind me. I was fortunate that that just that just came fairly naturally. So College didn't move quick enough. Still. The thing that my brain doesn't moves really quick, not always to the benefit of what I'm doing,...

...but it does so kind of this this speed of thinking in this this this ideation that I was doing and this lack of money. I dropped out of college, blacked my way into a job at like age eighteen, doing what got. How is a pensions administrate to me? I remember exact think it was dull guy. Yeah, exactly exactly. It was like I was the talk of the town administering those pensions and I good for reading the ladies walking into the inner big time. It's I was fighting them off. And to top it off, I the interview that I turned up at for this this job. I'd actually I'd bought a tie. It's awful. I thought this silver time it with a dragon on it, like, you know, one of those one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine year two thousand dragon things, and we used to wear that in town as well. So we go out drinking in the same close arm. Man, it was awful and I was like eighteen at the time. Did four years of that, realize that I was just bored of it. I wasn't very good at it, but that's sort of some of the stuff that I did. They're introduce me into code in, which will perhaps get to in a bit. But had these couple of jobs and I remember just getting if sort of your boardom threshold. Is that like? One hundred percent at age nineteen. That's where I was when I got this job. Four years later, twenty two, twenty three years old. I'd switched the job once I moved. I moved a couple hundred miles when in came back, so I switched jobs. When I did that, three or four years later, same kind of job boardhom threshold down to about ten percent. I hated it. It was you know, there were people telling me to do things I didn't understand, and I don't understand why I had to wear a tie. I couldn't I have highlights in my hair in the year two thousand and two, and you know that just I wasn't allowed to do it because it was company policy. Was Stupid. I got this other job in another city which is about twenty minutes away from where I lived, and I remember trading this job, my old job, for a new job and getting a two grand pere rise, and the two Grand Pare eyes was like the thing that I chased. So I get to this other job and it's day one. I walk through the door, same kind of get up, you know, bad sort of bad suit, you know, it was awful. Nothing fit. And walked in and it was like I'd put my pain down at the old job and picked it back up at the new one. Nothing was different and I left. I was there about an hour and I got up and left and I just said to the manager, Graham, I just said look, might I've been here two hours. It's not causing me any problems, but this, this is the last time, I'm doing anything like this, and just left. I didn't have any plan, I didn't have anything else. Walked out and my mum went crazy it. My Dad didn't, but my mum did. You and nuts what what happened after that was really interesting. So I wasn't about twenty grand at that point, which, you know, for a twenty two year old in the year two thousand and one, two thousand and two, two thousand and three, was was all right. You know, it was all right. I could pay what I needed to pay. Did a little bit work my dad, he's electrician. So you got me doing a little bit fetching and carrying from I don't know five six weeks and I got a job interview for a freelance trainer because I once did some training at my old job. So I put on my on my resume on my CV, I put on that I could do training. So I looked out into getting this interview and got the job. Now it took I didn't know this, but it turns out this job was a day rate job. So almost overnight is two twenty three. I went from only twenty grand a year to almost two hundred grand a year. And and yeah, I was insane me. I was like what are you the day rate? Yeah, so dare it is where I would turn up and I would I would I would be contracted for a period of time...

...to work with people at the ministry defense or the National Health Service, and I was contracted for say, three months at a time, and they would pay me x amount per day, you know, three, four, five hundred pounds per day, which at that time is insane. It's still amazing money now. What were you doing? Is that that was these different places, just teaching train I was just learning, just learning things. I was learning business development or project management and and I was training other people on the things that I'd learned. So I was, you know, I would just go in and acquire some skills. Then the best one that I did was working for the Ministry at Defense. So imagine this, twenty two, twenty three years old, put it ready to put a bill in for four five hundred pounds for the one days working. On my first day, turned up at an airstrip for the Ministry of the defense, for the army, in a suit at twenty three years old, looking an idiot. This old major, it was called Davey, was it was a fantastic guy and it just what are you dressed as an ioul like, yeah, right, you got me. I said, well, you know, what's the plan? I'm here to train you on this new recruitment platform and some business change around it. Like what's the plan? And he pointed to a zip wire. He said, get up there, go down the ZIP wire, crawl under that cargo net, get back in your car and go home. And I was like he's having a laugh, this guy's joking. He wasn't right. He wasn't he got me to go down the ZIP way. He got me covered and through the mud and the dirt. After I'd finished it. It get you. Was Really Bisive. Just came up, put his arm around them and just said, whatever you do, come back tomorrow, don't dress like that. Dressing whatever you want, but do a damn good job for me. I'll see you tomorrow. I was like all right, and that was but that was day one on the job. So going from corporate to that, it sort of open my eyes. You know, actually you can earn decent money, you can do a great job for people. And this guy respected me after one hour more than my old bosses are done for years because I didn't jump to their tune. And that was an eye opener, man. But just I am curious. What was the actual job? So after you did the completely off topic a work, but like you use that, you did a zip line. You came back the next day. How do you get because you don't get paid, paid five hundred pounds a day to ride a zip line. That doesn't make sense as a job. Like, what were you actually teaching people? I taught them just how to use their own recruitment systems. That was it. So I got in the week before and learned. So I went like down south to the south coast, learned how to use this platform and then day one was like right, go back to your territory in Yorkshire, train your local Army on how to use this software. And and that that day one was his way of basically breaking down the corporate levels in me and kind of getting embedded me into his world, because I needed in order to be able to train a grizzly old sergeant and an old major that had left the army and was now recruiting new cruise there was no way they were going to respect me turning up in my suit and telling them how to do the job. So we kind of broke that down and built it back up with that one hour of work, and he still signed off the invoice as well. Still got paid five hundred pound for that one day, which is fascinating. A good birth day. Okay, so you're making two hundredzero pounds a year in sounds like before you're even twenty five. That Ball Er money. For anyone that age. You would be living large. Why would you even need to do anything else? You should have just done that for the next few years then have a million dollars in your bank account before you're thirty. Right, I know, right. That's not the way that I worked the so what I realized when I was doing that job was that a lot of the challenge that I had with money weren't actually about money. You know that chasing the money wasn't the thing that was chasing. I was chasing the control to be able to do what I wanted to do. So I remember one day there was no need for me to be...

...on site. So I was working for the National Health Service at this time and I will I was working on a site that was about four hours journey from home and the person who was running the contract I said, look, I have I have no reason to be on site today. What I'm going to do is, instead of doing the eight hours round trip or whatever, it was all coming and staying away from family or whatever, I'm just I'm going to work on these training materials so that I can deliver the courst tomorrow. I can treat you know, whatever it was. I can do that better for you tomorrow. I know you know, buy some new stuff to write up. And she said no, you know, we're paying you, we want you on site. I said, you've got nothing for me. This is stupid, like why would I need to do that? And in the exact opposite kind of approach to the old major she said, if you don't turn up on site and do the small menial thing that I will make sure I find for you, then I will not sign the invoice. Well, that was the last they so of me. You know, they didn't. They didn't see me again, because it was it was ridiculous, and I just said, well, if that's how you run, if that's how you run your business, then this is not for me. And that was the last time. The iron the two hundred thousand dollars a year or the two hundredzero pounds a year by billing someone else. So I left. You get fired or like no, I just told them I was leaving. Okay, so you didn't think this is only one bad case. I could do the next one. You thought now I'm out because I hate not being in control. Yeah, and it was. It was a bear in mind this is twenty three year old me. Like thirty nine year old me will be out. Maybe this person's had a bad day. Twenty see you on me. Me was like this, screw this. So what did mom say? Well, you do, I didn't tell her. Lesson my let's there is one hidden part of that, though, which was alongside all of this. So while I was earning the two hundred grand and whatever it was, I had built up a little bit of a buffer, not much, but I built up enough that I didn't really need to work for a few months. So I had I learned how to could and when that buffer started to drop, started to dwindle, start topping it up by selling websites to people. Okay, when you say learned that a code before you continue that story, because I also started building websites at about best same age, twenty three and twenty four, and I bought myself a textbook teach yourself html in twenty four hours, and that's how I learned very basic website building skills. Now I don't call myself a coder because I would not be able to build a captivate dot FM like you guys have built today. I can fill only do a few html tags, nothing to do with like PHP or see sharper, all the coding language nowadays, Ruby on rails. What did you learn at that point, at twenty three, it was? It just website building basics, because you know there must be a connection then to learning a lot more in in development skills. Yeah, so I learned essentially the front end skills of the time and I've got sort of kept up with them throughout that as well, even though I don't do much less of it. So at the time it was htmlcss one point zero before two point zero came out. And, believe it or not, it was flash and action script, remember when that was prevalent on the web. And then we scaled that. You know what? I scaled my own knowledge through to things like Javascript, jqueering, about two thousand and eight CSW three, but you know, everything from there. But it was it was everything front end. You know, I was focused on that. So I'm like you, man, I can't. You know, I can't really build too much on the back end. I can't really do too much PHP. I certainly can't do any, nor dot JS. I can't do anything, even with some of the more modern frame works like angular. Like I'm really I could do it, but, Mane, it would be slow. But it was. It was interesting because those skills. This was a lesson that I know everyone sort of learns eventually, because I had some of those skills, like I was more of an expert than the person that needed the website building. So they started to time it to build the websites and suddenly suddenly had a website business, which was really, really...

...weird. But I didn't know how to build a business and knew how to could but I didn't know about like an after order business cards and set up my my website. That was Badass. I looked fantastic when I turned up at a meeting, but I didn't know how to close the meeting, I didn't are to invoice, I didn't know how to do contracts and any of the business stuff because, guess what, I remember I dropped our college, so I had to learn all that stuff on the fly and that you know that. That eventually led me to some of my cofounders on the agency where we essentially I started freelancing as a web designer, a web builder and we formed an agency with a couple of friends, which you know, that's the thing that we scaled. But it was tumultuous at the time. It was scary because you know that that runway that had built up. You know, in hindsight, like you said, probably could have stayed all of the couple under grand a year for a little little bit of time and built up a little bit of cash. But it was every day, it was five am every day, working for people I didn't get on with. Yeah, it was tough and but then the runway dwindled. You know, the two thousand and fifteen whatever grant that I'd saved up because I didn't have these business skills. They all dwindled. You know, that money just fritted away, you know. So tell us more about the agency. So agencies building websites. It is the most commodetized business on the Internet and I feel safe saying that's the case even in two thousand and eight when you were going going home with it. So how big did it get and what was the key to growth? We got to about twelve people, which for a, you know, small agency, was fantastically profitable. So we had good retain as building digital projects out, and we scaled it in such a way that was really sensible. So we why had too founders? Co Founders at the Times was a chap called down and a chap called mark. He was a photographer and Don was a printer. They're basically they brought their skills. So we became very quickly a full service agency. People came to him, we could do everything for them. We then merged with another local agency to a basically acquire some talent, another developer and a fantastic brand designer called Kai Wilkinson or have. I still work with day branded captive it and we then we sort of we sort of departmentalized a little bit. So I started to lead up the digital stuff where we build software for education companies and we build platforms for people. unbeknownst to me, I in two thousand and twelve, you know, I was building Sass for people and before Sass was a thing. And you know, ki was running the creative arm and don was running the print time and that the offline arm and Matt was running the photography. I'm and we scaled that really nice. And They O K I was doing the pictures. We want some fantastic local authority contracts, which we're a blessing, a blessing and also a bit of a curse. You know, that's that's something that that is another story. But you know, we we scaled this business. But just just to care what happened. It's fame, like. I know people say they scaled a business. In my mind is like, because I love talking marketing and traffic, word of mouth, advertisement in the local paper. Where were all these customers coming from? Well, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you the basics of that and then that brings me to the next piece, because this is where it gets interesting. So word of mouth referrals a lot of I want to say sort of local advertising, but it was it was much more reputation management, a lot of pr a lot of very basic noise making. Because you know, you're right, web design was commoditized and everything that we did was commoditized. But back in the day, I know one was doing decent marketing. It was just all shouty sort of look, there's an advert for this digital company and it's two hundred nine seven dollars for a basic website. Like we didn't do that. We were just very noisy in a way that now would be seen to be very normal, but back then people will like what were telling us. That for so it was very...

...much that. But that's an interesting insightful question here, because I actually started getting a little bit bored. No, so, I know right, can you believe it? It's a good job not like ad matured a little bit, otherwise that I've probably bailed on the industry. Don't do that anymore. But what happened was I started to get into digital and start to think to myself in about twozero eight two thousand and nine. You know, I'm interested in search, I'm interested in organic, I'm interested in in this nascent field of content. Guess who? That led me to one darren rows and one yarrow start. That led me to you guys, and I was like, I'm going to study what you guys are doing. This is fantastic. This is why it's interesting that this is full circle and I started studying and learning from you chaps like this is Badass, this is brilliant. Like what an interesting thing to be able to do is to spend time seeing what actually works, what an actually taken a day to let approach to things, when I've never done that before. It was just kind of throw it out and see what happens, which led me to develop my own skills, which led me to become a little bit more noisy, which led me to push some of the people internally into things that they were a little uncomfortable with, which then led to me leaving the agency because I wanted to do what I'm doing now. So this is all traceable back to the discovery of online marketing back in then, a two thousand and eight, two thousand nine, maybe a touch later, a lot of people have that kind of story. I think that was like the pivotal learning early years and today they're something credible, they build something amazing, as you have. Will take us for it. To the agency. I'm assuming you know you make a good living. You're not necessarily as like a ball or as you were. Twenty three year olds earning two thousand might may be worried about it. You know it's not quite the same when you're working in your own company like that. You can't just say no, I don't want to do this anymore. What you could, but take us forward with the the agency growth, because it at some point if you're getting into content marketing. To me I just think, well, you just do content marketing where clients doesn't necessarily Change Your Business, it just adds another service to what you're already doing. But you don't run an agency. Today you're totally in the world of podcasting. So obviously something happened. Yeah, absolutely, well, content marketing, marketing was in its infancy. To Hammer that home, I remember going to talk about two thousand and nine, two thousand and ten with someone who branded themselves locally as a content marketing and she delivered this wonderful talk about content marketing. Right at the end she opened it up to questions, which was like the nail in the coffin for a because the last question she got, I'll never forget it. Me and I I was out there and she gets a question which is what is content marketing and how can it help my business? And hurt honest answer in front of everyone that she'd spent so long convincing to buy from her, was I don't really know, you know of not figured it out yet. Oh Wow, okay, so that I know. All right. So that's the timing of content marketing. So for us to try and sell that, the education was so tough to people, like why should you pay us hundreds thousands of dollars a month to do something that you really probably can't understand? This is when, like the yellow pages were calling up and saying, you know, for fifty quit a month, will get your keywords to the top of Google. And it's they were. There were so hyper local and hyper specific keywords that I could have done it in fifteen minutes. You know it would. But people were buying that and that's what we were up against. So that that was starting to happen and because those were sort of the skills that I was acquiring, but they were very difficult to sell at that time. Now less so. My cofounders and the other directs in the end so like, well, we just need to sell websites and stuff, and I was like well, that's kind of boring. So the second thing that happened was actually two things happen. I got into podcasting, so I started podcasting for myself. I did a DC comics podcast. Anyone looking any video of this chat, you'll see there's DC comics and star wars stuff in the background. I love that...

...sort of stuff. So I started podcasting about it with Gary, who's now our our head of design at captive it, and I started then thinking where a sec I could probably apply this to this content marketing stuff that I'm sort of getting into. Maybe I'll do a business podcast, and I did a business podcast. The second thing that happened was at the exact same time I started looking at recurring revenue models of business. So I started to say to the directors in the business, why don't we build software? WHITE WE'RE A design agency. Why don't we build a design management platform that we can use but then other people can buy from us. Why don't we build a PM system, a project management system for design agencies? Because guess what, nothing exist that does it. You know, even base camp was in the inmensity about them and they weren't interest because they didn't see the value straight away. and Sir Karen and I, one of the developers at the agency, excuse me, as I'd got into podcasting. I said to the lads in the are you see, why don't we want it? Would take all these things that we do for clients now and we charge a one off thing for and we find it difficult to pitch on an ongoing basis for word press management. said to Karen One morning, I've got an idea. Why don't we create this word press managed platform? Will spin it up in our spare time. Will partner with someone in the podcast because we didn't have any that wasn't in the podcast industry. That's just two thousand and twelve, two thousand and thirteen. Will partner with someone in the podcasting industry and see if we can sell it someone that's got on audience. So we did. We partner with John from ear fire. We opened it up and people started pain like from day one. You know, in we actually did an all classic pre launch on that one yarrow. So we launched it on a Webinar. We didn't even have a product, but we had some beer to us as grandfathered in on a deal, and we promised them that by x date it would be live and they bought into it and we hit the deadline and we nailed it and that was the transition. That was called. That's that is still called just podcast websites. You can just we there was nothing else like it. We know your part. Yeah, Nice, were pret for you. Yet well, it was even more. It was even more automated than that. So we because we were you know, again, I can do bits of design and Curans accorder and we've got a good design. I we prebuilt a website, we built a system that would also deploy word press and then we built an entire education system around why and how to customize the design that we given you with a dragon drop builder and so on, and and we built this entire platform out. So people what they do, and this still the they can do this to this day. Theoretically, they can sign up to the platform, a word press website will be also deployed and they will then get all the education and everything that they need to customize it and the community that goes and goes with it. Now the one thing that existed on the back end of that, and this was our last minute decision, and I mean like a mega eleventh hour decision. I remember talking to a friend over some beer. I said, would you buy this platform if it didn't include podcast hosting and analytics? It was like now wouldn't like Karen on the phone, Dude. We got a build basic hosting. This is in two thousand and fourteen, and the seeds of captivate existed in that hosting. So we've been providing that for years. And then again there's you know, there's a there's more to the story where we split them out and built each business separately. But that's where it starts and that was the transition from agents. It's a podcasting. So did you completely leave the agency and were able to live full time on just what you're getting from the podcast hosting? That's worry. PODCAST...

...websites business. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we were. You know we were. There was maybe an eighteen months transition period, but from day one Kia and I would draw in a salary from from the podcasting web business, just from like entrepreneur on fire promoting it was that. I know John Johnlely boomers who were talking about here his podcast. I mean it's use now. I think even then it would probably and you had the perfect offer for his audience. He was selling podcast coaching back then, I remember. So that would have given you a flight of new customers. But then then what like? You have to still keep growing getting new customers right. So it was there a growth plan for that company that allowed you to take a salary so quickly? So two parts to that. There was a growth plan, but it didn't allow us to take a salary. So they were two disjointed things and I'll explain what I means. It sounds stupid. Yeah, the so John's audience provided a steady stream of leads, which was fantastic. And you know, we're still very close with John and Kre and it is a they're run a fantastic business, you know, in what they do. We basically went full ball into embedding ourselves in the podcasting community. You can remember back in the day as well, no one was doing word for it's like blueberry kind of had their sort of plugin. We caused a lot of change in the industry. I don't mean that to sound like I'm blowing our own trumpets, but we from day one spend our own money, on our own money, on going to podcast movement and exhibiting and speaking. I mean they one. went and we did it. We brought design to the podcast in industry. I'm confident in saying that because we it looked crap man before then, like everything looked bad, and we said well, it doesn't have to and we also went with an open mind and we helped people and we did community things and we did education. And it's easy to think, well, of course you did, that's obvious, but honestly, back then not a soul was doing it. Not One person was being was serving that audience in the way that we were. So that was the that was the growth plan. That didn't necessarily map to the bigger picture. So remember at that time, you know, we had a product that served a tiny portion of the addressable market. You know, the podcasting market was still reasonably big. There were new people entering it very, very quickly and very, very readily, but a lot of them had their own website. A lot of them didn't want a website, a lot of them used free plugins. You know, the addressable market for us was Tini that the bit that we were serving was so small. So we we set out a three year plan which was to split up the core pieces of captivate and also introduce one of the piece which is the interaction tech. Sorry, split up the COREPIECE OF PODCAST websites and turn them into specific businesses, so that what we could do medic a right at the beginning. You know, the podcast hosting is the thing. Everyone needs a podcast, US, every podcaster, but not everyone needs the word press part of it. So if we could do something that opened up more of the addressable market, the other stuff would benefit as well, because we had already made ready made funnel and ready made pipeline. Hence the launch of captivate. That's what we did. So that was a three year repositioning plan. You know, we spent a hell of a lot of time being patient, a lot of time doing the things that you know, we had to come up against people saying this is the wrong strategy and this is not how you should do it, and we just a low this is our plan. We're confident in it. Just give us two years, give us three years and sure enough, three years in the plan it is fully formed and it's been delivered. So that was the growth strategy and we knew very early on with the websites business that, and we still do this to this this day, that we can serve people really well, like we love that business and we love the people that we were with, like we genuinely enjoy doing that. But we knew, but as long as it as long as it paid what we...

...need it to pay, we were no worse off than when we had the agency. So we were able to leave the agency, step away from it be no worse off. But suddenly have all this time and all of the is focused to build these other things. So we were really patient and we chose specifically yes, will grow the web business and we'll keep it churning, but what we're not going to do is put forty hours a week into grow in it, like we probably could have done, because we knew the bigger picture was over here. Yeah, so that's that's it was a you know, when I look back at I've never really taught about it like that. Like when I look back at it. That was a it was a pretty gut see strategy because he could have gone completely wrong. It's a hearing it. Obviously you're giving us a surface level touch on the strategy, but it does sound like you're breaking a fundamental rule where you don't normally try and sell three things at once. You know, you find the one thing that's really popular and you go all in and maximize it as much as you can and then move on to maybe another thing, spin one off as a separate entity and so on. But I also can imagine, especially coming from an agency model, where in web in particular, with the Web, Web Agency is, I think, one of the worst business models in some ways, because you do get called upon to do everything. You can build my website? Can you set up my my podcast? Can you design every element that goes into some kind of content marketing piece, the social media part of it, maybe the podcast part of it? They sort of look at it as a Jack of all trades and now, of course, the markets of fragmented and become specialized. So yeah, you go to a podcast website design service like you started for that specific part of Web Design in and then obviously you need hosting. So it's something you would not necessarily expect to get from the same company, but it's comfortable to get it from the same company and then, if that works, you can separate them and is two entities. But what I'd like to know, you know, the three year block and even bringing us up to the current world where you have all these things running at the same time, how does it look like from a because what I struggle with even myself, because I'm an entrepreneur. I want to have this company. I do have, you know, an email services company, I have, obviously, my podcast, I have my blog, I have a coaching business behind all that, and there's other things going along and it's every day it's wake up and you know, I want to kind of do them all, but I have to stick to maybe the one that's got to generate the money, that pays the rent, or it has a goal that I'm most excited about, whatever the case may be. How do you currently control and manage all this, and is there a big team behind all these platforms, like do you have a one for captivate now, because I know it was just you two at the start? ONE FOR PODCAST websites? You've got? Let me I don't know how much rebel media repel base media is a business of itself still as well. Like, what is the team look like? And I you like you, the CEO telling everyone in these teams to do different things throughout the day. was some day in the life of mark basically at the moment. Yeah, good question. We I'll break that down into sort of the handling, the not not doing too much when it goes against all of the advice, and then sort of get the more modern version of the teams and so on, and I sort of great that. So you're right completely. You know, we should be focusing on one thing and we do, and we did. To add, to give some insight into this, the first ever product idea that I had in podcasting in two thousand and fourteen is the product idea that we are only just pushing out into our for, in fact, six years after we decided to do something with it, almost to the day yesterday, we got us patent granted for that very technology because of a lesson in patients, in doing the very thing that you'd said, which is what's going to what do I need to do right now? So...

...there is one sort of, I suppose, unseen change that was happening in podcasting, which forced us to think a little differently. PODCASTING, around the time that we were developing this three year plan, suddenly decided that it wanted to be a big media business and we were already in it. So we had to vary specifically. One, move quickly, to move in a very focused fashion and, three, start to do the things that would lead to results six years later. So at the beginning of that three, four five year plan, I started find the patent for this product and I'd barely touch it once every month. We've got the pattern turning sorted out. We knew when we wanted to hire someone, we knew what the tech would look like. We built the API for it on a weekend and we packed it. We left it. We didn't touch it for two years and then we did and then the patting got granted. So we we were able to skip over these things, having an eye on where the industry was sort of going to be in a little while. We were very fortunate because we were in podcasting right at that point. We'd been in it for two or three years. Would seem where it have been. We saw the prescipist we saw where it was going and we were able to put those, those foundational pieces in and then come back to them later to design. Just Marcus, I feel like you know both podcast insiders and when you say podcasting decided it wanted to be a media business, what does that mean? I kind of feel like I know you're talking about because suddenly everyone had a podcast and Louis House was suddenly famous talking to celebrities and I was like, Lewis House is just a friend of mine from Internet marketing. How is he suddenly talking to? He's on the Allen Show and all these podcasts were exploding. But something else was happening too, was givement media. I know big podcasting company was formed probably around the time you're talking as well, and that's a different kind of podcast model. So what's your interpretation of that shift? Yeah, so when we say podcasting as media, you know we think a podcasting as this sort of industry where independent people can do whatever they want to do. But around two thousand fourteen, Fifteen, sixteen ish, I mean six two thousand and sixteen the easiest way to pinpoint it. You know, with the launcher cereal, where it became a media for the masses, so Netflix had educated my mom on the fact that she could get whatever she wanted visually, whenever she wanted it. Uber and educated on the same thing for travel and deliver roo and just eat, and Uber e's it educated on the same thing for restaurants. So suddenly this on demand audio that was RSS driven, you know, to have a fancy APP on your phone, was actually just Netflix for radio and people started to get into it more. But they started creating Ip they would build shows intellectual property with an eye on selling them to move a studios and TV studios, and that's that. You know, this is an entirely different topic we could get deep into. That's the fracture beginning to happen in two thousand and sixteen, two thousand and seventeen that we see much more of now. You know, q code, wonder I, Pineapple Studios, all these people, McMillan, producing these amazing things that are intended to be mass market entertainment media, Not Lewis House interviewing Gary v. You know, that's different. You know. So it's that's the split that happened. But we were like we were fortunate enough to be a the podcast conferences when one year apple turned up, why are you doing it? And then suddenly, the year after, spotify turned up, and then Amazon showed up, and wondering and Nan and the team with then you like what it what's going on? This was just like fifty people last year, and so we were able to that's the precipice I'm talking about. It was either going to drop or it was going to fly, and it flew because people start creating the creating this mass media. And does that Change Your Business Anyway at that time? Yeah, yeah, it does. So what that did for us, Yarrow, is it did. It did two specific things. It made us focus on captivate much earlier and we got, you know, we built that and it's a it's a great platform and it was built really, really well, and we just...

...we built that. You know, we just thought right, consumer based podcast host. We need it, because now my moment's going to want to podcast because a mate's told her that her ma it's got a podcast, you know, because everyone's got them. So we needed a consumer host. So we did. We built captivates, brilliant, we love it. But this big podcasting stuff, that original idea, this this interaction tech idea, like that's for the Indi is like Q and I. But it also had big implications and technically technical implementation opportunities for the bigger tech platforms, the bigger production companies. Hence as filing the putter. Yes, if you have explain what that is, I know if you're allowed to talk about that. No, I'm not going to go two into too much depth on it, but it's interaction tech essentially. Okay, that's very but it has. It has implications for the AH right, it's got implications for the the the bigger companies, which you know, they can use it. So we kind of started those wheels in motion. That was what it did for our business. We knew, which kind of brings me to the bigger question about how we run it. We knew that the the number one I couldn't run everything, that cure couldn't run everything. So what we did was, you know, those component pieces of podcast websites, the web platform, the hosting platform, the education platform. We exploded those out into three constituent pieces and registered a company for each one of them. So podcast websites does the management stuff for wordpress. You know, the academy runs through rebel base media, which is a membership business and captivate runs is its own business. Now what we were very, very focused on is, well, was very specifically launch captivate. Remember, at this point we have profile in the industry. We shout about it long enough and loud enough, people turn up when we launch and sure enough, people bought captivate from day one, and rightly so. It's IT works. It's not just on the strength of shouting. It's a it's a brilliant platform and we were then able to take that money because, guess what, we got podcast websites. We don't need to draw a we don't need to draw a salary from captivate at this early stage. We can which keep living on this stuff. We're able to hire in a support team and suddenly, you know, eighteen months, two years later, where we are now? Captivate is a team of twelve people, a ranger developers in a multinational support team, a ranger designers, a marketing team, and the same for podcast websites. Are Very small team of very focused word press individuals that do a great, great job productivity, the Interaction Tech. Yes, what it's got a developer and they just work on productivity and it was very carefully planned and you know we talked about that focus. You know that whole do one thing until you've got it to the point where it's not necessarily exhaustible. Way It's running well. That's what we did. PODCAST, website is runs itself. Captivate doesn't run itself. I steer it, I guide it, but everyone is really good at their job and that's why we hired them. So I'm confident that. You know, I can my covid vaccine over a day. Of course I've got symptoms and the business doesn't set on fire. Everything works really, really well, and that was the model. That's how we did it and that's what we still do. You know, we still we're doing this now with the Interaction Tep Productivity. You know, we've got the one one developer Ed here and I work on that and it's a repeatable model. We're just in Alpha with that, which is working really well. Got The pattent granted and it's you know, off it goes, so that it's been a proven, repeatable model. But the key thing to take away from that is that you're absolutely right that you can't do too much too soon. You've got to have confidence in like we did with the interaction stuff. Do One thing that you need to do now to set it up for the future. Pop It on a shelf and come back to it when you can dedicate some time to it. That's been vital to what we've done interesting. So maybe as we've kind of head to the last few questions here, mark, and we're you know, I feel like we've connected the dots. I have a better feel...

...for what you're in charge of. It's almost like three business units and you're the the CEO of one of them, but you're obviously the founder of all three of them, cofounder the podcasting it feels as that we record this it's almost like a second kind of period of explosive growth, as the platforms start to come out, like, you know, new new software tools like verbside apple suddenly deciding that we're going to take this as seriously as spotify is and we're going to let people monetize with paid subscriptions and things like that. It's all just happening as we record this. It does feel like it's one of those moments in time where they'll be a big boom of lots of different tools exploding and then I'll start to consolidate and you could imagine podcast host start to merge, you know, podcast recording tools start to get acquired and become under one company. I know you aren't necessarily sure about what direction all this is going, but in terms of your own businesses, is division to possibly exit some of them, sell them off? It sounds like you're excited about this patent with a physical tech your building, which is maybe I don't know the details, but it sounds like it's physical and software which is out. That's, I was a unique challenge. What is like the vision for your own companies, if you're that clear on it now? I know sometimes myself I tend to build things as I go and adjust as I go as well. But you must be feeling Oh ay, you know, captivate could be the ten figure business here because it is in a growing, massive marketplace. It's a it's a SASS, it's the subscription, it's got all those sweet things that people love to hear about. You could even think about taking adventure capital and going huge and all those kind of things that all cross your mind. The venture capital think doesn't at all remember the control thing. You know, yes, that would. I would struggle like heck with that. Met and honestly, I don't know if I want that. Like I set my business as up when our twenty three. You know, I was a bullish twenty three year old and but I always had an eye on being older and been able to take my kid to school and someone did. All I want was just someone to not make me sit on a chair and I didn't want to sit on a chair and instead be sat on a chair watching my kid play soccer or in a band practice, you know, do all the things that you want to do as a family person. And and that's why I do what I do. So venture capital and that sort of thing doesn't interest me because that comes with inherent pressure. My job is is to be the the person that looks after those closest to me. That's my job. You know, the business is a something that I love doing and my users the people that I look after the most in that realm. So I think, yeah, you know, there's always an eye on d risk in you know, because captivate or any other product that you build, and you'll have you know, you've been in that position and will continue to because that's what we do. We keep building things. You know, when you've got something that's growing, inherently you've got risk associated with it. You progress in your own life based on that particular product or the success of that product, and that's where the risk comes in. So there's probably an element of the risk in at some point. I think you're right. You know, Karen, I've spoke about this. Consolidation will happen inevitably. You know, it's already starting. We've seen that. And for me it's really about doing the thing that I want to do, you know, and really enjoying what I do, making sure I can provide for the family and give them a great life, give the kids the opportunity that I had never had and that, you know, we want them to be able to have, and let them make their own way. But the risk in some of the business. So I think whilst we don't know what that looks like, you know there is an opportunity for us potentially to think about that. Would we want to go public? Would we want to V see in the future to get to that point? Probably not, man, because that's a lot of late nights for me and I'd rather I'd rather be walking up by a kid that needs me and thinking about what a venture capitalist thinks about my decisions. You know. Yeah, okay,...

...well, let's wrap it up with one one question. I'm mark. I probably I didn't tell you this. Maybe you know, if you don't know, but I've kind of rebranded this show calling invested capital going forward. I'd like to kind of tie into that concept and I know I'm I was interested in this. It can be a very personal question, so you can take it as personal as you want to. Looking back on all the things you've done to make money, to build your own capital and possibly what you're thinking about in the future in terms of growing capital, could you advise everyone listening purely, and maybe you're going to tie it into what's been the biggest source of your capital over the years? What would you recommend to the the audience to focus on if they are focused on growing a really serious to make a lot of money? I know other way of putting it, but maybe also tied into, you know, the mistakes or the the directions that were not a right fit for growing money. Like I does sound like you had an opportunity to make a lot of capital at twenty three, learning two hundred grand a year, but at the end of the day, that still wasn't the right path for you. So take that question, or multiple questions, wherever's you like. But you know, what's your advice? Yes, in there are three things that I'd suggest. First and foremost, the old cliche are the old obvious one, which is you've got to really enjoy what you're doing because no matter how much money comes with it, you know you're never going to look back at eighty, ninety years old and think to yourself, do you know what, I'm glad I had all that money, but lost all that time with the kids or the family. You know, and by enjoying something you give people the opportunity to be around you as you can be at your very, very best, because you'll never you'll have the bad days, but the badness bad days and not there because you do in something that you hit that there because they are a byproduct of doing something that you love and you just, in my view, you become just the genuine version of you that you can, you can you can continue to be, regardless of what you do. That's why people who set up multiple businesses keep doing it, because they enjoy different things at different times in their life. So I think really focus on that part of it. I know it's Cliche and it's very soft, but I do think that's sort of the baseline. The second thing that I'd really focus on is, it's going to sound cliche to start with, but it's tactical when you get to it, which is focus on people. In the early days of a business, all you have his relationships and you know you all you can do is be very, very good to people, be very very honest, be very very transparent and be very, very helpful. Now the way that you can tactically scale that is by making sure that when you do build something, that, like we talked about earlier, with the support side of things like that, should be the first thing that you focus on is the experience, because it's easy to defend your platform if someone comes in and you know we have it, we captivate, someone's having a bad day and they kick off, you know, and it's not anything to do with it. It's apple podcast that's down or that you know their microphones are not working and that you know. The one thing that the Typo that's in captivate because they typed it is captivates fault in. It's not, but that's all right. It's not our job to say a way the second. That's on you. It's our job to put the arm round and said, you know what, actually, we got your back. I've covered you on that one. On by the way, let me know what else I can do. I'm really here. If you're like all we have all this stuff, we've got these, we've got these, these, all these live things that we do where you can just come and be around other people like that is core and scaling that support is vital. The third thing that I would focus on and I would really suggest to people is get good at either marketing or get good at realizing which bits of marketing you're not ever going to be good at, and do that early, because if you don't, you'll go from zero to one, but you'll top out at one. You're never going to get any further. You know you you'll you'll never get to...

...an eight figure business. You'll hit out at a low seven or what. Don't you know, whatever your goals are, your aspirations are those three things. I think of things that I wish I'd been told when I was younger that I'm not even sure the college tutors could have taught me. Had I stayed on. But I think if you put them at the center of everything that you do, they'll serve you if you're a Tradesperson, if you are a digital entrepreneur, they'll serve you if you go get a job, you know. So I think they're absolutely vital. Is it's safe to say, in terms of your own financial success, it's mostly being in the podcasting space, like, not as a podcaster but as a support service to podcasters. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, podcasting absolutely has been my career for nearly ten years now, my which is insane when I think about it. Yeah, well, it's a good field to be in. You've been riding away, which I feel is just getting in bigger at the moment. So I hope it continues to rise and doesn't ever come down and become a nothing of make me sad. I was the podcast proper than I more than I read books, that's for sure, and even maybe more than Netflix, which is saying a lot. So No, wow, that is saying a lot. Yeah, I mean I probably should track that because you know, one binge watching session of a serious on Netflix can suddenly be eight hours. I would sit there and listen to eight hours straight of a podcast, you know, or audio books, but still it's definitely some some serious time put into both audio and video. Mark, we've mentioned a lot of websites. Obviously, captivate DOT FM is the kind of like the main one we've been mentioning back and forth. Any others you want to send people to now or just you know, you want to get them focused, you want to give them lots of options. Will give him one thing. This is one of my tutorials that I always give a podcast as give them one call to I could, and that's always just that. He's always just social. Just get me on twitter. That's the place that I'm around the most and it's the place that we can actually have a chat. So I'm just at Mr Ass with on twitter anytime. I think that's how I asked you under this podcast to this episode on twitter. So yeah, it works well. Actually. Yeah, thank you, mark. I appreciate the time. Good luck with all all the tools. I'm looking forward to seeing this is new paintented secret technology that you've got coming up soon, so that that will be fine. It's rare for digital entrepreneurs to get into physical so that's always exciting to see and and keep up the good work. I appreciate your effort well. Thank you so honestly, and thanks for thanks for doing what you do and what you have done over the years as well. You have been a genuine inspiration. So thank you, man. Really appreciate it. Appreciate it. Thanks for listening to today's episode of vested capital. If you have any friends or family members who might also benefit from hearing this episode or they're interested in startups, entrepreneurship, investing, making money, generating capital, those sorts of topics, do send them to my podcast. Right now I'm rejigging all my domain names around this show. So the simplest way to send it to people or to find it if you're listening to it without subscribing yet, just go to it. Whatever your favorite tool of choice is for listening to podcast, whether it's Google or apple, or could be Amazon, could be stitcher, could be tuned in. There's so many different players nowadays, whatever one you're using. If you type in either my name, why a Er or vested capital, you should find my show, where you can subscribe and download previous episodes as well. Once I get my domain name sorted out for this show, I'll also have the website address for you, but hey, most of us, like myself, you're probably using an APP, so that's the best way to find the show and also share it with your friends. Just tell them to go look for yarrow inside their favorite podcast APP. Okay, that's it for me. Look out for new shows coming soon. I will talk to you on the next episode. Bye. Bye,.

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