Vested Capital
Vested Capital

Episode 18 · 1 year ago

(EP18): Tim Ferriss Trilogy, The Origin Story, Optimizing Learning, The Original 4-Hour Workweek Interview

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Tim Ferriss needs no introduction. 

Author, lifestyle design pioneer, angel investor (Wealthfront, Uber, Facebook, Twitter, Alibaba, Shopify, Duolingo), peak performance bio hacker, accelerated learning leader and of course, podcast host.

Tim first appeared on my original podcast all the way back in 2007 when few people knew his name and he was talking about his new book, the 4-Hour Workweek.

In 2012 he returned to my podcast to talk about how to accelerate your speed of mastering a skill, the main topic of his new book at the time, the 4-Hour Chef.

At the same time as we recorded that interview, I also asked Tim to record a secret interview just for my membership site members -- an interview where I asked Tim to explain what happened during the years BEFORE he wrote his first and most famous book.

Today I'm excited to release this special trilogy podcast featuring all three interviews, edited and re-released as one big Tim Ferriss flashback.

Tim is a superstar. So many entrepreneurs credit his book as a starting point for their entrepreneurial journey and millions more people listen to his podcasts.

These interviews I am publishing on this episode feature Tim during much earlier phases of his career, but of course Tim never disappoints, so there is timeless wisdom to be gained by listening in today.

 Enjoy the trilogy,

Yaro

Podcast: https://www.yaro.blog/pod/
Blog: https://www.yaro.blog/

Hello, this is Yarrow and welcome to vested capital, episode number eighteen, featuring my guest Tim Ferris. Vested capital is a podcast about how people make money and put their capital to work. I interview start up founders, Angel investors, venture capitalist, Crypto and Stock Traders, real estate investors and leaders in technology. Today I have a real treat for you. So you probably know Tim Ferris as the author of the for our work week, the for our body, the for our chef a whole bunch of other books on peak performance. He's also the host of his own podcast, which has become absolutely massive in the last sort of for five years. He has huge guests on their mainstream celebrities, athletes, stars, experts. He's known as a biohacker. He has done many experiments on himself to improve his own performance, to maximize the speed of adoption of skills, you know, learning optimization. Basically, his books have covered all these topics and many more. He's also a very successful angel investor. Maybe you don't know that, but he was one of the early investors in companies like Uber and spotify. He's bad a TV show. There's so many things I could tell you about tim which you probably already know, which is why I'm excited to give you this special vested capital episode, which is really just one big long Tim Ferris interview. I say it's one big long one because I've combined all three of the interviews I've done with Tim Ferris. So a little bit of background just you understand where all of this is coming from. So go back all the way to the year two thousand and seven. I was brand new to blogging and podcasting. I've been doing it for about two years at that point. It was very early days for both those mediums, and this guy sends me an email. Is Name is Timothy Ferris. He says he's written a book called the four hour work week and he's loved to send me a copy and also, if possible, we could talk about it on my podcast at some point. You know if I was up for it. Now I'm a little embarrassed to say that I never actually got back to Tim and said Yes to that interview straightaway. I luved that email in with a whole bunch of very similar emails I was getting at the time from authors of books that were just published. It was very common, still is really for a podcaster to get these requests when a person's releasing a new book. Hey, would you like a copy of the book and would you interview the author on your show? Now I was doing that, but because I was kind of getting overwhelmed with those, I would just say no to a lot of them, including Tim. Fast forward a couple of weeks later and suddenly I'm seeing this book called the for our work week creating a huge craze. All these podcasts and blogs were talking about it. It seemed like it was creating a much bigger impact than a lot of the other books that had sort of been released recently on similar topics. Now you probably understand why that is. Tim Farres just wrote the For our work week, released it in two thousand and seven and it really did make a splash. It talked about lifestyle design. It made everyday people who were working nine to five jobs realize that it's possible that they could have a much more designed lifestyle, including travel, exploring their hobbies and passions, learning new skills, without needing to be rich and without needing to wait for retirement. So Tim really flip the script open their eyes to the potential of things like creating a side income stream, creating an online business which allows you to travel. He called an amuse at the time, and so many entrepreneurs over the years following will go back and say one of their initial inspirations for either quitting their job or becoming an entrepreneur for the first time was because of this book. The for our work week. So, going back to my story in two thousand and seven, although I initially rejected him, as I saw this book balloon and popularity in the next couple of weeks, I did right back to him and said, Hey, I'd love a copy of the book and Yes, let's book you in for the show. Tim, of course, was an unknown quantity at the time. He hadn't done any of the things publicly by then he'd ready done a lot of cool things behind the scenes. You know, he traveled the world, he built his own supplements business. He'd become like a tango world champion, being in mixed martial arts, movies, crazy behind the scene stuff. That really was the reason, I believe, the for our work. We stood out not just for the idea present but all amazing things Tim had lived through, which was kind of like the example, the proof of his concept. So I got Tim on I read his book. For me the book wasn't eye opening because I was kind of in the same boat as him. I didn't want a job and I'd managed to make my own income stream, but I was very fascinated by the things he done with his travels and just how much this book was really going mainstream. I was, to be honest, a little bit jealous. I wish I had written the book and I had gotten it out there. But full credit to Tim. He was the one who went out there and did it and he came onto the show being a little green, to be absolutely honest.

You know he was doing a lot of interviews for that book, but I think it was possibly the first time he was really going mainstream with his personal brand. So he was talking a lot of podcasts, radio shows, getting a lot of blog interviews. Now I was also very green at the time. I'dn't even doing my podcast for maybe a year and a half, very ad hoc. I haven't really done very many interviews. So I actually interviewed Tim and it's an interview I'm including today as the third and final part of this episode invested capital. So I've got three interviews with Tim. The third one is the very first interview between myself and Tim from two thousand and seven about the four hour work week. It is a little green, but I want to include it because it's a nice nostalgia trip and Tim does still do a great job of introducing this idea of the for our work week and how it all came about and talks about some of his travels and experiences and what it's like to create a muse the side income stream and all that. So that is included in this episode from two thousand and seven. Now fast forward to two thousand and twelve, Tim is releasing his third book, the four hour chef, which is all about learning optimization, how to master skills in a shorter period of time, which is something Tim had been practicing and he'd been doing it through cooking, but also language learning, and he was releasing this new book to share those stories. He's very much a hacker, a biohacker, a human performance hacker, so it was still experimenting on himself and of course when he releases a new book he always tries to get on as many podcasts and blogs as possible. So he came back to me to be one of many bloggers and many podcasts to write about this new book, which I of course said Yes to, but I was a little bit cheeky. I also said to Tim, and I'll be honest, there's no way this would work today. He's way too popular and busy and, you know, says no to most things. Back then, I could still get Tim to say yes to certain things like this. I said, I'd love to interview you about the four our chef and release it publicly on my podcast, for the right timing, to help you sell more books, which was his goal. But I said I'd also appreciate it if you could do a second interview with me, something behind the scenes, specifically for my members. I had a membership side back then. I still do. It has a different name. Today it's called the laptop lifestyle academy. Back then it was called EJ insider. Doesn't really matter. It was just something I was very much focused on at the time and I wanted to give something special to my members and interview with Tim Ferris, but not talking about his books. I want to learn about Tim before he became the famous author and, of course, today, the famous Podcaster, the famous Angel Investor, the famous performance expert, just the famous, famous person really, and learn in more detail how he was able to travel the world, what was his first success with business, all those sorts of things. So I ended up doing two interviews with Tim, one on the four our chef and his formula for peak performance through mastering the speed of learning, so basically getting faster learning new skills, and then the second interview only from my members, which was about his prior history before he wrote the For our work week. You know what he did at university, what he did growing up and so on. So we did those two interviews. One went public, which is on the feed for this podcast, and one was private only for my members. So for the very first time today in this episode of best the capital, I am releasing publicly that behind the scenes interview with Tim and I think it's also probably the best one I've done with Tim because, frankly, by then I was more comfortable interviewing people and it was a story styling to view. Wasn't specifically about one book. It was more about Tim's early history, which was certainly my sweet spot, my comfort zone with my podcasting. So in summary, you are about to hear three interviews with Tim Ferris, starting with his background story, the first interview I did. That was not released publicly, so this is brand new. No one has heard this besides my members. Followed by my two thousand and twelve, four, our chef interview, all about how tim learn skills quickly and he teaches you his techniques and systems for that. And then finally, the original two thousand and seven for our work week interview, when Tim and I were both young and green to the world of podcasting and doing interviews and being interviewed, and we talked about his first ever book that put him on the map before our work week. Okay, that is it. I hope you enjoy all three of these interviews. I'm so excited to release them, especially the one that I haven't released publicly before. As a result, this is alonger than average podcast, well over an hour and a half. I think you'll love it, though. There's a lot of Tim Faire's wisdom in this episode and, yeah, I'm just happy to share with you this trifector of Timothy Ferris interviews. Here we go nowadays, Tim we hear about your success, which is building on your prize success, which is building on your prize success so we don't really know much about your background. So thank you for taking the time to hopefully dish all the mysteries about your sworded past my pleasure. Many mysteries to fallow. Yes, so tim does have a bit of a deadline to meet, so we're going to try and get into...

...the straight away. No, no, Chit Chat, Tim I am curious. Where were you born and raised? I was born at the very east end of Long Island, so up by Mont Talk, and grew up in a middle class family. My parents were involved in real estate and physical therapy never made more than fifty k. you're combined and grow up in a resort town, effectively, I mean out by the Hampton's. So my first jobs were working in ice cream stands and restaurants as bus boy and occasionally got upgraded to waiter if they were short on staff. But that really was the upbringing. Went to elementary school, high school, at least the first half, on Long Island, and then transferred to New Hampshire to boarding school, which was actually my idea, because one of my friends only one and been forced to go to borning school by his parents and thought it was the best decision they had ever made for him and ended up being true for me as well. That took me to New Hampshire. After that, after a year in Japan also, which was very formative, ended up at Princeton and then after Princeton ended up in Silicon Valley. Of course, there's a lot that I'm jumping over in the details. I am curious. Is there any entrepreneurily endeavors in that period of your life? Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean I became fascinated. I've always had insomnia as long as I can remember and as long as my mom can remember. So I would stay up and I would see Tony Robbins and run poo peel and all these informercials just by virtue of being up as late as I was, and I became really fascinated by the art of the pitch, so to speak, and offers, deal structure and so on and so forth. So even before I could actually buy products, I, unbeknownst to my parents, would sometimes call these phone numbers just to see what questions they asked me and how they kind of led me through the process. And in college I really began to take it more seriously. My junior year I decided to create my own information product, which was called, and this is a terrible title, how I beat the Ivy League. It was a guide to getting into top tier schools with subpar Sats, for instance. In my case, I thought it would solve itself. Decided I would sell the guidance counselors through their newsletters and whatnot, and it's sold grand total of two copies. I took all of my savings and put it into inventory before the minimal run that I could do, which was a few hundred kissats, and sold two copies, one of my mom and one to some unknown that I don't remember at this point in time, and I actually only through those tapes away a few years ago. I was I was convinced, you know, someday I would be vindicated and the brilliance of this product would be shown to the world at large. But can't bring you through them away. They could be a collector side of Moneybay. Well, I kept a few. I kept a few but listening to it, number one it was actually pretty terrible, but number two is I decided on a product first and then tried to find people to sell it to. That was a big mistake. That's something that continues to be a mistake that I attempt to fix, not only for myself but for startups that I work with. But flash forward a year. By senior year in school, I decided to focus on low cost testing and also finding the market first and then designing the product. So I decided to create a threehour accelerated learning corpse with a focus on increasing reading speed and offered it to print and students for fifty dollars for a three hour seminar with, I think it was a two hundred percent money back guarantee if you don't triple your reading speed, something along those lines. And didn't have any money. I was working for eight dollars an hour in a library at the time and then bouncing at night for additional income, and I sold the entire thing out. It was, I guess, thirty two. I also got very good at phone sales as a result of spending all this time looking at informercials and reading copy from caples and whatnot. Can you time stamp this, because you're university in one nineteen ninety nine, two thousand, so one thousand nine hundred ninety nine probably. So are you still selling cassettes? I don't think so right. That was that was over and done with. I had thrown in the towel for the most part and I was only focus on doing a seminar. And it was more money than I'd ever seen in my life. And I just remember getting on my bike after the event and riding immediately to the bank to deposit all this money, which was in a fifteen hundred whatever, and I was just bunched up in my hands and in my pockets has checks and and twenty dollar bills and I've never felt richer in my entire life. I may even even now like that day was a real hammament. I was like, okay, this stuff can work, it's not all bullshit, because I started to doubt all the get rich quick stuff, and I still think most of it is not terribly helpful. But it did show me that if you focus on low cost testing, I mean I had to beg a church to let me use their daycare center on an off hour's day to teach using their space, and it was just the cost of...

...my time and obviously developing the course and then putting up a couple flyers here and there at school, that as long as you control the downside, the upside is eventually pretty much guaranteed, if that makes sense. If you can cap your downside, the upside more or less takes care of itself, as long as you're a rational person who learns from your mistakes and ideally, from the mistakes of other people. So don't go and produce hundreds of cassettes before you have a market. No, go to, you know, unbouncedcom or something like that. Create a landing page and test to ensure that people are willing to pay for what you are actually trying or thinking of trying to sell before you ever manufacturing. Okay, so how would you, when you have this first success with the seminars, be reading? I guess it was twenty two along those lines. So you're basically university college students. And what you studying? I was studying neuroscience and then linguistics, but specifically East Asian languages, like a Japanese, Chinese and Korean. Why? Because I found interesting, I think liberal arts. The goal of liberal arts is to create well rounded problem solvers who are curious. I don't think that the job of liberal arts education is to prepare you for trade. That's why you would go to a specific professional school I study interested me and in the end it ended up with all this writing stuff. We won't jump to that, but kind of full circle and now I can actually use that stuff. So ironically, but what we thinking of the time time in terms of what's my future going to be? A career? Big Business? I mean you're talking Silicon Valley as well, so you must be thinking startups. Yeah, I didn't know. At that point. All of my classmates were competing for investment banking or management consulting and I didn't want to do either of this thing. So I actually took a year off of schools senior year and worked for various companies in different industries of different sizes. I decided that the size was potentially the most important to me, so I worked for a political asylum research firm, which helps people apply for political asylum in the US. That was a three person company, but I also worked for companies as large as burlts international, which was tenzero people redesigning their Japanese and English curriculum. And at the end of it all, I decided that I wanted to work for a company that was somewhere between ten and fifty people. That led me to consider different startups. So ultimately ended up deciding to move to Celicon valley, but it wasn't easy. I actually I did my final paper in a class called high tech entrepreneurship. It was Elie for hundred and ninety one on a company called Trussan networks and it was a profile of the company and at the end I very what I thought tactfully asked them for a job or to at least give me a shot, and they said No. In the the CEO proceeded to say no thirty two times. I'm not getting I saved the emails until I finally said, and this is I was already graduated, I was at home now, my parents like, you can get a job any day now. Feel free. And I sent an email and I said, you know, I'm going to be in San Jose, which is where the company is located, anyway next week. It would be great to meet up just to say thank you for your time and give you some competitive analysis. That didn't make it into the paper, which might be helpful for you guys. and Said No, sorry, I can't do it, and then had a change of heart about an hour later. He said all right, I can meet you from. It was something like one fifteen to thirty on Tuesday, and the truth of the matter was I didn't have a ticket. So then I had to take my savings and buy a standby ticket fly to San Francisco. I mean I stayed in San Francisco, but one San Jose A and didn't have enough money for a hotel, so I stayed at a kickboxing gym and lived on the second floor on a bunk bed from the period of time that I was there. And ultimately he made me wait around for a couple of hours and met with other people in the company. He said, okay, you're just not going to stop bothering me until I say us. Is that right? And I said I suppose that's about right, and he said great, you're in sales, and so put me into outside sales. So my job was to sell multimillion dollar data storage systems to people like dream works or American Airlines or the FBI or National Geological Survey, people like this. So you became a wage slave. I became a wage slave, but there was a big commission component styll. That's really when I started studying negotiation and sales again as a focus and bought everything you can imagine, I mean spin selling, getting past no secrets of power negotiating. Like you named the book. I read it over time developed an approach that it seemed to work pretty well, and that included not making phone calls for the entire day, because I noticed that if you called during nine to five hours, you almost always got secretaries and gatekeepers and you'd fail nine times out of ten to get a decision maker on the phone. So I would actually come in early and make phone calls from say, seven to eight thirty, and then I would do other types of work like prospecting and research, and then make phone calls again after six PM. And...

...taking that approach, I closed a lot more meetings and, as a result, closed a lot more sales. Interesting. So to this eventually turn into your own start up or something that your own business, or did you actually stay in employment for a while? I was employed for about a year, year and a half. I'd have to go back and look at the exact dates, but the company was, as many tech startups at the time, promising more than it could deliver and engineering was behind and eventually started running out of money because they couldn't ship product. They could book revenue but they couldn't receive revenue and they started firing divisions and I saw the painting on the wall. So I decided that I could run aspects of the business better than the people currently running it and started to fantasize about starting my own thing. And I asked a very simple question, which I still ask, which was what do I spend a disproportionate amount of my income on? And the answer was sports nutrition. And I had a little bit of background on in the sciences in Undergrad when I actually made different types of performance enhancing supplements for myself. My bedroom look like a meth lab, which I don't recommend. But the upshot of it was I realized that not only did I spend a ridiculous amount of money on sports supplements, in some cases, you know, two hundred and fifty four hundred dollars a month, when I was making a base salary of Fortyzero pre tax. My friends did the same and many of them made even less than night. It what we say. Say you trying to be an Olympian or yeah, but what? Was a competitive athlete for many, many years and I was an all American and wrestling in high school, so I took athletic performance very, very seriously. But there are literally millions of guys who have that same purchasing behavior and I decided, as I often do, that I would just make the product that I want is and sell it to people who are like me, and made it surprisingly easy to target. I was like, okay, well, I training kickboxing, I trained in this and I value reaction speed, so let me find contract biochemists whom I can pay per hour or per document to help me formulate a product that will improve reaction speed, and then let me mark it to specifically trade publications for let's say, kickboxing or martial arts, powerlifting, because it's a very clearly defined niche and therefore it is both easier to plan your media strategy or acquisition strategy it's also cheaper, because you're very precise. Fick, saying everyone is your customer is the is the worst thing I could possibly hear as, let's say, an adviser or potential investor. That reeks to me of wasting money, which is almost always the game. Okay, so you actually went as far as having some research done for your product, which is quite daunting. I think for most people they would just think I'll write an ebook or all, I'll put to something wholesale, but you were thinking, no, I'm going to put together a specific supplement that I want to use, using some science to figure it out. Yep, that's right. And it turns out that almost all a sports nutrition or vitamin companies outsource nearly every function of their business. As a result, though, they're very secretive about who they use, even though, for instance, even in mountain bikes, I mean the the top mountain bike brands are almost all made in the top two or three manufacturing facilities. But I started calling people who were tangentially related to supplements during my lunch breaks when I was still working as a wage slave, and I was like, all right, well, if no one who's actually running supplement companies is going to answer my questions, let me do searches for vitamin supplement contract packaging, labeling, etc. And then I use the same approach, calling before hours and after hours, and eventually got the president of a company called Maracale, which does a lot of packaging, on the phone and he he answered, I mean it's a big company, and he answered. Funds at seven o'clock whenever I called and I told them I just said, you don't know mean, this is totally out of left field, I'm just starting out in this. I want to use you for my business. I'm not a joker like here a few of the things that I've done, and I just really need your help. I want to spend money. I don't know who to call. And he was great. You know, I basically pulled the you know, at some point, I'm sure you called somebody like I'm calling you. So five minutes would really mean the world to me. If you hang up, I understand, but it would really, really mean the world to me. And he end up spending more than an hour on the phone with me and made all the introductions I needed to get this product put together. It was just fantastic and I was off to the races at that point, although I needed money to do the manufacturing run, so I basically browbeaded and guilted all my friends in the company into agreeing to pre order the product so I could pay for my first manufacturing run. Okay, so what was this product? And we talked about a pill you pop or yeah, yeah, it's a pill. So it's called body quick or cognomine, and I was ended up being sold in about twelve countries when it was at its height. Still sold today, even though I sold the company two thousand and...

...nine. The product has more than a dozen ingredients that affect primarily three mechanisms of action. One is increasing micros circulation in the brain, so oxygen uptake in Glucose metabolism. That would be even postatine or Postine Vinca, minor things like that. Then you have ingredients to the precursors to a setal colline, which is a neural transmitter used in utilized form muscular contraction, among other things. Thirdly, would be co factors that help in conversion of these different constituent pieces into substrates confused by the body. Okay, so all of this means and the mechanism, which is primarily a sutal cooling focused is actually rumored to be what's a lot of the top Jamaican sprinters are using right now for one of their competitive advantages. But that was it. Clearly work out reaction speed based supplement right and yeah, that's perhaps a little bit above me. All, what most people go and do with their first well, wasn't your first business, but I guess your first sort of start up. But let me add one thing, because it isn't. It just seems like there would be no market, because it's like who athletes that are interested in faster reaction speed, like baseball hitters, tennis players, etcetera. Boxers and a lot of celebrity athletes start ended up using it. But the finer your niche, the more you will cap your losses, like controlling that downside, because you will be very targeted in your messaging and your marketing and your media. And I would just say that you can always expand your market later, but you should not start off broad and then half the niche down later. You always a lot of money and time. I think what I'm referring to is even just the the manufacturing process of putting together what I view as a somewhat complex products. I think perhaps at the time for you it didn't seem too complex because you had knowledge in that area. But you know, for a guy's been writing content, that was a very scientific explanation you just gave for a product. So sure, sure, yeah, I mean and I did have background. I mean I did have a little bit of background. But you know, putting together that act, it's not rocket surgery, as they say, but it's definitely more complex than what I would do when I would recommend to someone. I mean physical products and physical fulfillment is a pain in the ASS. It's really the biggest headache imaginable. So information is certainly much more interesting than these days. Now I'm curious because I think everyone who's read the for our work we knows that your supplements business was your initial muse as you call it. Initially comes stream for your travels. You everything you've done that everyone wanted to replicate your ability to help the planes and have these short mini vacations, and it was the business that you, I'm assuming you systematize. So became a failure. Automated Income Stream too. So I'm correcting all that. Right. Yep, that's true. Can you tell us then? I would like to spend bit of time on how this business grew to the point where it allowed you to have all have all this freedom. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I started very targeted and focused on print in niche magazines, which was effective, and the messaging was very similar to the speed reading. I mean I offered a hundred ten percent money back guarantee, guaranteed to see effects in the first sixty minutes your first dose, which was true, and then pushed to either a call center or the Web. Later on, when I got a little smarter about it and decided to involve distributors because I hated fulfillment, I would go to someone like bodybuildingcom. Their amazing, I mean they're shoot huge company. People don't realize they do hundreds of millions dollars are revenant per year. I would come to them after having negotiated, say, a full page print ad from Twentyzero to twenty five hundred, and the two resources I used for that primarily we're secrets power negotiating by Dawson and getting past now. So negotiate that down. Then I would go to someone like a bodybonecom and I'd say, Hey, I have a full page I'd valued at Twentyzero if you are willing to order just half of that in wholesale. So I spend tenzero product and pre order that. I will put your phone number and you are out exclusively in this print add and that way I was guaranteed not to lose money on that advertisement, even though I might sacrifice some of the upside. I was guaranteed not to lose money and I just tried to scale that as quickly and as widely as possible, and I did that in the US, I did that in the UK, I did that in Australia, I did it all over the place. Is Finding big companies to effectively sponsor the advertising by buying product in advance in return for their placement in the advertising. This is very commonly done for retail. That's where I picked it up, where you'll see or even for infommercials. If you see ninety two spots for like, hydrox cut, what do you see? You see logos for right aid, Wall Greens, etc. It's the same exact process. Interesting. So it's like a cross promotion in exchange for bearing some of the costs, bearing all the cars all. Yeah, right, that sounds like even like a jump from just selling it to your buddies at work. Exactly.

It's much well, yeah, I mean I'm selling to my buddies at work, but it was simultaneously putting together a very simple website that then process payments through authorized dotnet. And what I mean is very primitive back in two thousand and one, but at that time I would get orders and I would print out the mailing labels and I would collect them all up at the end of the day and and take them to the post office and mail them off priority email myself, and that got old really fast. So eventually started hiring fulfilment centers and look first local fulfillment centers, eventually a large fulfillment center in Tennessee, because the ups shipping was cheapest from the center of the country and also fastest and in both directions, east and West. But a lot of that was, of course, the infrastructure that I was building and many of these companies I met just by going to a select handful of industry trade shows, which I recommend everyone knew before they start a companies. You're thinking of starting a company in, let's say the food and or beverage industry in some fashion. Could be sports drink, could be some type of canned good, anything, you should go to the fancy food show and so forth and so on and really see who the players are and you can find every contract supply or manufacture, packager, fulfillment company you can imagine by going to one show. So you know, don't be penny wise and pound foolish spend the fifty bucks or two hundred bucks necessary to go to one of these things and fly there, so you meet these people in person. Okay. So how did this grow from something that you were doing, I assume, on this side, at your job, and then you, I'm assuming, quit your job and then your imagine. I did not quit. The inside sales division was fired and as soon as they were fired, I knew that the outside division, which I was part of, was next, and at that point I really had not launched the product, I had not started selling it. At that point I had only gathered pre orders for my buddies to help pay for the first manufacturer. So as soon as that happened, I was on severance pay for maybe two months or three months, I've no idea, and had my health insurance paid for through Cobra in the US, s our healthcarees messes, you know, for something like six months and I was like all right, well, I need to start generating some real money and the next three to six months or I'm in I'm in trouble. And that's when I started doing it full time. So it was it was full time pretty much from the outset. So it sounds to me like the secret here. A lot of it was you're very keen selling negotiating skills in terms of getting deals for from marketing and I no doubt getting deals for shipping and fulfillment and so on. Can you take us through how it went from this start up to, I'm assuming, something that required great little of your time so that you could jet off to Japan or do all the things you did do, and it maybe even take us to the point you'd start traveling or I don't know when the mini vacations began, and I'm assuming they started soon. They started in mid two thousand and four. So from two thousand two you mid two thousand and four, there were no many vacations of any type. Mid Two thousand and four, my long term girlfriend at the time, whom I had assumed I was going to marry, broke up with me because I was working from seven am to nine pm. So I can't really blame her. I basically chase the time zones. I would wake up, talk to people in Asia, then Australia and just work my way all the way to California, then Hawaii, and it was horrible, but at that point I really realized that the income I was making, and I was doing extremely well. I mean I've been making forty base salary, like I mentioned before, and I was pulling in more than forty km month at that point and I was totally miserable. I mean I was a I was trapped in this machine of my own making. So I made the decision that I would go to London for four weeks to pull myself out of my routine and also to stop having meetings and phone calls whatnot, and attempt to redesign the business so it could run without me and if I was not successful, that I would shut the business down, because clearly it wasn't working. I mean my quality of life was not improving along with my income. What I did? It's really almost embarrassing to admit how simple this was, but I sent an email to all of my contracted ful film and centers manufacturers. It set are all these third parties and said to the managers my points of contact, I said I am no longer your customer, my customers are your customer. I'm going to be extremely hard to reach. Therefore, if anything costs a hundred dollars or less to fix, just fix it yourself, make the customer happy and then log it in an excel sheet and I'll review those on a weekly basis or review the decisions. And it worked so well because prior to that I would get contacted for everything that was outside of the norm. So it's like, oh, such and such an athlete needs bottles overnighted to Austria for a skiing competition. WHAT SHOULD WE CHARGE? What should we do? And that was chewing up, you know, forty fifty hours a week, and I'm not kidding. It dropped the less than five hours a week just with that one email. Over the...

...next week, two weeks, three weeks on and so on. I kept on upping the Anti. So went to two hundred dollars. If it's two hundred less, go ahead and fix it. Five hundred less, go ahead and fix it. And when I got to the end of four weeks, I've been successful at pulling myself out of, you know, ninety percent of all the day to day business stuff. And it was at that point I had also pretty much perfected the art of not doing advertising for direct acquisition of customers, although I was also using Google ad words, but I was using companies like Bodybuildingcom to handle all the fulfillment and all the order taking. So I would simply I was effectively only managing the ad placement and then the negotiation of how much inventory they would buy and then they would wire the funds and everyone was happy. That's when I extended my trip and the four weeks turned into eighteen months and then here we are. So that was a bit of a craft course and how to will not systematize your business is really take away a lot of the labor and make the decision making go to someone else now, but you have one person show still at that stage. To Yep, one person show I was. I was in one person show pretty much the entire time. I mean I had virtual assistance who would help with very specific projects, but I did not have an assistant that I would hop tito things too. I had many different people who would do analytics and website design and so forth for India, Ukra it wherever, using elands another services, but I did not have a company structure with multiple people. That I did not have. At this point in time did you start traveling a lot? It is just when you kicked in all your goals to, you know, win dancing competitions and getting to Hong Kong films and all the things you talked about in your books. Yeah, that's when I got started, and I mean it was not easy because all I've done was work up to that point, for the last four or five years. And yet I remember the first week or two in the UK where, without work, I did not know how to fill my time, you know. So I was in this vague day is, wandering around London going from like crist attraction to museum, but turist attraction, trying to avoid the Internet cafes, and it took a while to resurrect these interests that I'd had in college and high school and to really regain that curiosity. But that rough free entry period it was really obviously necessary and definitely worth it. I mean, I wouldn't be here without it. So I think that anyone who's trying to completely redesign their business to support lifestyle design should expect that there's there are going to be some growing pains. All right. So where are we at? This is you said, four or five years of doing this, so you must have been hitting your mid s by now, made to late S. Yep, that's right. Literally S. So that was two thousand and four, two thousand and five, seven years ago. Put Us at twenty eight. Okay, so in some way I don't want to review the entire process. But next you just traveled like crazy, right, so it. Can you give us a summary of I went to Japan and learned this and I went to here and learn this. So then it, because I'm assuming the business starts running itself recently well, and you're just indulging in these experiences. Yeah, I checked email, you know, once a week just to get pretty much to play matchmaker with media buys and inventory purchases and then making sure money was going to buy bank account. That was pretty much it. I mean I did have one catastrophic emergency which was, in hindsight, pretty good, not funny, I mean tragic, but really awful. Where I was in brought a slava and I checked my skype voicemail, I think it was at the time, and the president of my fulfilment company and had a heart attack and died. Is Very Heavy Guy, and they were shutting everything down in forty eight hours. This you have forty hours to get all of your inventory out of our warehouses or we're just going to leave it on the sidewalk and I'm in the Slovak Republic, and I did sort that out, but it was a bit of a bit of a headache. So first I was in London and I had no plans because I'd lived my entire life in fifty minute outlook increments right and I wanted to be completely unstructured. So the way that I traveled was following where the wind took me and if I found two or three people who said you need to go here, I would go there. So I went from London to Galway in Ireland, where I learned hurling, which is one of the most amazing sports in the world. It's a fast field sport in the world. From there, jumped back over to Europe, traveled all throughout Europe and ended up landing in Germany, in Berlin, which I fell in love with, and I stayed there for three months and studied MMA, eating, makes martial arts German and also looked at graffiti and electronic music, which was a blast by Berlin is a lot of fun. After that I went home very briefly for Christmas, and very briefly is important because I was trying to get a tax exemption for spending the vast majority of my time overseas. I think it's three hundred and thirty days and three hundred sixty five day period or something like that. Talk to your accountants. But very short trip back to the US and then I went to Panama and I spent a month in Panama and a couple of friends said you have to go to Argentina. So I plan on a...

...four week trip to Argentina and that ended up being nine months because I was bitten by the Tango Bug and then started training like a maniac, you know, sixty eight hours a day, and went to the world championships and set a world record and all this craziness. And then after that I came back to the US. It was more traveling. To him, I know that was more traveling. So well, there was more traveling. I just didn't talk about all of the little countries in between. But yeah, I mean I hit I hit a lot of places. So course of all, how did you solve the fulfilming issue with the guy with our attack? I had scramble and have some of my outsourcers also help to find a replacement full film and center and then have all of the materials ship to that new fulfilment center. So that's how I resolved that. I was short, yeah, but it wasn't. You know, here's the thing. That sounds like a huge disaster and in some ways it was. It was stressful, but it didn't take more than two afternoons to fects and to have the type of lifestyle that you really want and to do the really big good things, you have to let transient bad things like that happen. If you want to predict all of those problems from happening, that means you have to have your hands in every aspect of every Fastta your business and that means you have no life. So I view it is very zero sum. It's one of the other. So getting comfortable with letting that kind of temporarily painful stuff happen and accepting that that's just the price you pay for being a Thirtyzero foot view strategic thinker is very important. Now you have actually sold this business, so can you take us through that decision making process and when did that happen? That happened two thousand and nine. Sold in two thousand and nine and it was actually funny enough, it was bought by one of the guys in a group of investors I had met while I was traveling and they couldn't bees me because I when I told that any of this thing as a cash gallon. It takes no time to run. They'd seen me when we would vote. We would go to Internet cafes together and work and I'd be like, okay, guys, I'm done, a like sea outside. They'd seen it firsthand. So I ended up selling that in two thousand and nine, and you have to get good at deal making for any of this stuff to work. You have to get good at negotiating and and creatively structuring deals so both sides wins. For instance, the company sale almost didn't happen because at the time two thousand and eight, financial collapse, the British pound at one point ended up tanking and the entire transaction is being funded in British pounds. Because these investors were overseas, all of a sudden the deal was something like thirty percent more expensive to them and they're like sorry, we can't do this. And what I did is ended up doing something along the lines of having them pay fifty percent of the prize and then having something like a six month promise ory note that they could pay back at x point in time, but if the strike price, meaning the currency rate between the US dollar and the pound, recovered that it would automatically trigger repayment within fourteen days or something like that, or payment within fourteen days for the final fifty percent, and that was that. They agree to it. The deal happen. Did that deal set you up financially for the rest of your life sort of thing, because I know you stunde, that you started doing the file work week and became an author and let yeah, life that most people know about. You became a much more public figure. So yeah, it gave me. I mean I'd I've never been a big spender, so I saved a lot of my cash. You gave me a good chunk of change, but not enough to live on for the rest of my life, but plenty to keep me afloat for many years. And one other thing I should point out is that I actually gave them a great deal on the company. And here's why. Because typically when you sell a company they're all sorts of reps and warranties, representations and warranties and guarantees of all sorts of types so that you're a consultant, let's say, to the company for one or two years. Maybe there's an earn out if you're in startups, for equity, and they're all of these catches, in other words in the fine print where you have to still be involved with the company for an extended period of time, and I didn't want that. So it's part of the negotiation. You know, those are all in there and I said look, unfortunately I got to know these guys over time, so it was also a very personal deal and I said, look, I'm going to give you a great deal because I don't want to deal with these reps and warranties. You know from having a lot of wine with me that I do not want anything more to do with this business. It's boring to me. I'm done with it. So I will give you twenty percent off if you get rid of these reps and warranties. You've already seen how the company runs, you've seen all the internal documents and everything else, and this is good for you. You know it's going to work and it also allows me to walk away and sort of wash my hands of this. And they agreed and that was that. All right, tims. In the last sort of five minutes before you have to run off, can we just sort of in a in summary for the people listening who they haven't had their home run start up yet, or when, I mean to start up their home on lifestyle business that they looking to get the cash phoe source the muse in your experience, especially looking back over that time frame, where there any major things you did right or...

...things you did wrong that you would like to reference to people now for them doing this journey, you know, at the starting phase for them? Yeah, I would recommend a couple of resources that really helped me to so the twenty two immutable laws of marketing. Get the old version, not the Internet version, but the twenty two immutable loss of marketing by recent trout is outstanding secrets of power negotiating by Dawson, if you can get the audio, is also incredibly good. And what first we'll teach you, among other things, is number one, you find the market and then design the product. This is very important, not the other way around. Test and expensively, and then it's easier to create a category than to dominate an existing category. So body quick, for instance, was a neural accelerators pre work out neural accelerated. That is a category that I created, at least as far as I know, and it made it very easy to differentiate the product and to be slotted into a different place in people's minds so that you weren't being priced compared. The other things I would recommend are really in the details, but from the very outset. There's actually another book that's quite good called built to sell by John Warrilow, and that is thinking about selling your company from the very beginning and designing your company that way. And even if you don't sell it, it's the right way to build a company because it requires you to put in systems that replace you. Because if you're required to run your business, generally speaking, wile to want to buy your business, because it means that if you quit or get sick or whatever, the company fails. So built the cells another recommendation, but I would say be different, not just better. Focus on market first, finding your market, ideally one you belong to, and then designing a product accordingly. And what really saved me as well, and this is why I recommend to most people that they focus on higher margin products. Is You eight to ten x margin in other words, if it costs you one dollar to produce, you should be selling it for eight to ten, because ten dollars to produce eighty or hundred dollars or or even more, and you it's extremely important, I think, to take that approach because you will make mistakes in the beginning. You will buy media that doesn't work, you will try partnerships to fail, and that is your safety net, that margin. There would be a few things that I think I took from that experience in broads, in broad sweeps. Also, the most important marketing piece you may ever read is one thousand true fans by Kevin Kelly, again talking about being very specific with your targeting, which makes you smarter, faster, more agile and makes everything less expensive. It's free online. One Thou true fans by Kevin Kelly. Yes, I've been recommending that one too, as well as Seth Godens tribes. So soal. It's with it as a companion piece. So Great Tim now, most of what you just said was very much physical product oriented, and I'm assuming you have no problems recommending that still today. I know you consult for a lot of Silicon Valley more software is a service. Still start up correct nowadays. Yes, I do. So do you have a business model you thinks the best for right now? No, I really don't, because I think it's a very personal question. It's kind of like asking which sport do you think people would be most successful in, and I'm like, well, you know, if you're really tall, good of basketball, to really really short and really strong, maybe she try power left thing. I do think it's extremely personal, but I always wanted subscription models, but I've personally shied away from it because I'm extremely lazy when it comes to managing different communities and constantly producing content. Believe it or not, really lazy. I've tried it before. I actually tried a paid for him like ten dollars a month, very cheap. Tried that maybe year and a half ago, two years ago, and it worked, but it was such a headache to me that I canceled the whole thing and refunded. Everyone was like, I remember cons new to him around for our work week in the really, really successful period of time. Just after we're saying, why don't you doing the course behind this, because I thought, wow, is this not the best time to be launching something like a continuity program or Onezero, lot of training products, something like that, because you could really off the massive exposure. You had had a huge selling program you said no, I want to do training in this area. I don't want to teach them do content production. So I was surprised. Yeah, yeah, and you know, you said, I had a conversation with seth good once. So we're talking about speaking engagements, because I had overcommitted to speaking and I ended up hating it because I was doing it all the time and and talking about the same crap over and over again and just like you only talk about email atter sponsors so many times. And I asked him about his rules for choosing gigs and basically what he said was, you know, you're either on the road all the time or you pick and choose your speaking gigs and you do a handful. And what he said to me was, and for whatever reason that's really struck a court of me, you can only eat so many eminems and meaning, just like with money, like once you've had enough money and you have enough money to really enjoy yourself, like you don't need to do miserable stuff to make more money, and it's very easy to forget...

...that and I still I still have to remind myself with this, because it's seductive to make a lot of money, really is, but when I look at the life that I built for myself, like it's kind of my lifestyle, it's my game to lose and I think a lot of people, if you're fortunate enough to find success, I think you can engineer it financial success. You will have to take the workaholic behaviors that perhaps made you successful in the very beginning and change them very dramatically or you'll continue to try to make yourself miserable. So just remember you can only eat so many eminem's. That's the first of the three interviews I have for you today with Tim Ferris. The next one is coming up. That was my interview with Tim when he released the four hour chef. But first I'd like to tell you about Inbox Donecom the sponsor for vested capital, which is my company. I'm the cofounder of this business with my cofounder, Claire. We created inbox done to help people who are drowning in email and customer support and using their inbox like a to do list that keeps grabbing your attention, so you're just not having enough time to get stuff done to move your business forward. Now, I think Tim Ferris is a perfect example to why a service like inbox done is so helpful. He was possibly the first person to truly make the idea of delegation something everyone on the planet could possibly do. We could all benefit from having a virtual assistant to hand over certain tasks, and certainly for US business owners, US entrepreneurs, having a person or a team of people to do things for us is one of the most important steps you can take in order to grow your business. You can't grow a big business without help, and for a lot of people, email is the sticking point, and maybe your calendar as well, two things that at inbox done. We help you do so. We will assign to you two inbox managers who will work in tandem to manage and reply to your email and also manage your calendar and any other admin or customer service related tasks around email and messaging you might have. We assign you too, because we want to offer redundancy, which means if someone has a holiday or, I needs to go on sick leave, we don't come back to and tell you that you're back in charge of your email for a month while we find a replacement or we wait for them to get back from holiday. We have two people always there. So you're or you've got that double extra protection of people managing your inbox. Because, trust me, once you've delegated your email and your calendar to someone else, you're not going to want to take that task back. It's like flying first class. You don't want to go back to coach. So if you would like the benefit of an inbox manager to of course, as we assigned to most people, then all you have to do is head too inbox donecom. You can learn about the service there and then book in a call, which will be done most likely with me, and we'll talk about what kind of emails you need help with. What's the ideal situation? Are you looking to no longer ever go into your inbox? How do we communicate with you? What does it look like to hand over something like email? What's the process we go through? It's quite a lengthy, detailed, careful process we take you through to take over your email. It's not a quick process. You know, it's going to take a month or more to fully take over these important tasks from you, but that's why we're specialists we've been doing this now for four years for all kinds of clients. were very good at handling email, which, frankly, is not something a lot of generalist virtual assistants are good at doing. So if you want specialists, and also you get what you pay for, you've got to really get the superior communicators if you want them to manage email, and that's what we provide. So head to inbox. DONECOM and I'd love to talk to you more on a discovery call. Okay, that's it from our sponsor. Now we're going to dive into interview number two with Tim Ferris, all about the four our chef and optimizing your ability to learn new skills. Here we go, and today I have probably one of the most fun guests you could have on an interview, Mr Timothy Ferris. Tim Thank you for joining me. Oh well, thank you for the very kind introduction of pyre. I say fun because everything about your life seems to be fun to him, so I don't know how you squeeze it all in, which is really what we're here to talk about. Obviously people will know you already. I'm sure there's not a single person listen to this who hasn't heard of, at least the for our work week. That's something I've talked about many times before my blog for our body your sequel to that, and now the latest book is the for our chef. So that's what we here to talk about, among other things, and I've done a quick little background check because I don't know much about the four hours cheff besides the obvious title. Let's go to have something do with cooking, but I can see the two aspects of this. You've got the cooking and you've got the, I guess, productivity, lifestyle design, how you learn to do things well quickly. Is that correct? Yeah, it's a cookbook for any skill disguised as a cookbook...

...for food. That's the short version, because my readers have been asking me for a book on on rapid learning for for five years now and I thought the most entertaining way to do that would be to take a skill that involves all the senses, which is unusual cooking, to take a skill that it kicked my ass several times, which a lot of people aren't aware of. There are skills that defeat me. Cooking is it, and then to from start to finish, just travel around the world, meeting the world's best chefs and fastest learners and take all their tips and tricks and put in one place. Now, Tim I'm amazed by the amount of things you actually get done in your your life thus far. I was just listening to an interview with you, and I don't know if I should say this publicly, but you did mention it publicly on the interview that you used to be a breakdancer before you're into tango. Obviously, all people probably know about the tango part because you talked about that in your books, but break dancing, not to mention Silicon Valley investor. Obviously, traveling around the world to view and study under chefs to then write a book, which is, you know, a full time on the taking in itself is writing a book. So you know, how do you make all this happen? Do you not sleep? No, I actually seep a lot. I love sleeping. I really love sleeping a lot, so I try to get eight to ten hours a night. Doesn't always happen, but I think that you the way I create the perception of getting a lot done. I mean, if you looked at me on a day to day basis, you'd be like, wow, this guy wastes a lot of time. I don't want to hear that. It's just procrastinating a lot. No, but here's the secret. The secret is that I focus on being as effective as possible as opposed to being as efficient as possible, or at least I focus on choosing the right things to do first, and then I can be kind of not mediocre my execution. But if I procrastinate a little bit like everybody else, as long as I choose the right thing games then I can get some some pretty tremendous domino effects. And so what I mean by that is, if I'm looking at, let's say, a hypothetical to do list, I'll really take time to try to identify the one thing that, if accomplished, would affect everything else or the one thing that, if accomplished, would render the other things I'm avoiding null and void and eliminate them to find those force multipliers. And there aren't many. So it's like one thing every three months or whatever it might be, that, if done, really just magnifies everything else like an archimedes lever. I think I'm good at habitually just taking the time to do that and it allows me to get away with murder. Can you explain with an example? That's the most recent one thing that you did? Was it today or this week? Are Yeah, yeah, so I'll give you an example. I mean in the case of, let's say launching a books, we have the four hour chef. I'm prouder of this book than of any Book I've written, and you know I am proud of the other books, but this one I feels like sort of the bedrock that allowed me to do all the other stuff. So I'm also being boycotted by Barnes and noble, though six hundred plus stores in the US, the biggest retailer, and because I'm the first major book coming out of Amazon Publishing and being boycotted. So that means I need to move, let's say in my week, which is the week of Thanksgiving, super busy, hundred thousand books probably to hit number one book scan which then translate to number one Wall Street channel. New York Times is fickle, so I might not even hit the New York Times regardless of many copies I sell, because of the the retail book up. So I need to look at the critical few things that will allow me to multiply that EM sales. So one of those which I'll be doing is a competition where I can turn my most devout readers and most capable readers into resellers of the book, where they can sell, it's a three book packages, Thirty Book Packages, hundred book packages, etc. And then be placed on a leaderboard where I can select the most effective and have them, you know, fly them from anywhere in the world to San Francisco for two fold days with me or something. Who knows? I haven't figured out all the details, but I know that if I execute that campaign effectively, it should have the potential to move, you know, between ten and thirtyzero books. That's a moving the needle type of endeavor, right. So if I have then another another thousand things that I could do to promote the book. And let's face it, like there are a thousand things you could do to promote a book and they're at least a hundred of them that are pretty attractive, but I will sort of rank them in order next to that one critical campaign, that one critical initiative, which is this group selling. So that would be that would be a good example. Okay, tell us a little bit more about the books. So I don't want to forget about this part too, because obviously your first book, The for our work week, was was sort of lifestyle design. It kind of introduced you to the world at large and a lot of ways, that's that's where I first heard about you and from that point we kind of learned that you were great at multitasking, with an the way to describe it, but you picked up a lot of skills quickly. You had a business that was...

...very low labor intensive to make it work or, you know, set up different income streams that were like that, and you tell people how to do this. So it's sort of an outsourcing lifestyle design, mini vacations, travel, ultimately, a for our work week book really big hit, hit the nail on the head and I think for a lot of people open their eyes to what is possible. Certainly, not having a job is a real possibility thanks to the way we live our lives at the moment with the Internet. Then the for our body was, I guess, hacking your body, as as your title described, and I mean I read that book and I'm still amazed again how you manage to do so many different little experiments on yourself that's a little bit twisted, to be honest, some of the stuff you did. But everything and everything, from losing weight to gaining way to traveling down to Third World countries to get medical procedures because it was cheaper there, things like that. So it was a nice extension, I guess, of the first ideas introduced in the for our work week, the for our chef. What's the big picture goal here? What are we trying to teach people? Yeah, the big picture call is to teach people how to really double or triple at least their learning speed with any skill. So rather than, let's say, tackling a language and it taking a lifetime to master, which is a common myth, or believing that adults learn language is slower than children, just completely untrue, I which you can prove with research, you can become punchly fluent a language and eight to twelve weeks, and so I'd like to teach people how to do that and how to do the same with just about any skill. I've systematically taken this sort of the grand recipe of all this metal learning process and applied it to like tango, breakdancing, basketball, swimming. I mean, I couldn't even swim until a few years ago and now I do it to relax. And the way that I sort of tried to collect these methods and tips and tricks was by looking at people like Da Vinci, like Benjamin Franklin, Jobs Nicolai Tesla, who are really polymaths, like how do they do that? And I made a study of it. So it's to teach people how to learn, like the world's fastest learners, basically. And the Benjamin Franklin in particular is really interesting because his trinity was healthy, wealthy and wise, and they're only kind of three main obsessions that I have that I think I've really done a deep dive on. And so healthy for our body, wealthy for our work week. And then why is is the for our chef? It's the book on maximizing learning potential and human potential. So that's pretty much it. And I'm using the vehicle of cooking a lot like Zen in the art of motorcycle maintenance uses motorcycles to explain zen and whatnot. That reminds me of that tennis book because Tim Galloway, it's a similar concept, but titles lost me. The metal learning that you're talking about here can you explain bit more about that? Yeah, yeah, for sure. So, I mean over the last fifteen years, starting in college, where I did a lot of experimentation with smart drugs, are different types like vassa pressing or Decima pressence and synthetic version, and and was in neuroscience labs and whatnot from the very beginning. I mean I've been obsessed with how to accelerate learning and metal learning is just a step by step process that you can impose on any skill to make it easier to learn. And the general acronym is disc to remember. So disss their three s's, and it's deconstruction, which is figuring out the lego blocks of a given skill, breaking it down into different pieces, and that could apply to anything. I mean poker, basketball, doesn't matter. Second step is selections, doing a twenty analysis to pick the twenty percent of those Lego blocks that produce eighty percent of the results you want. Then sequencing, so putting them in the right order, which is really important. So it's like, you know, a lot of people who play golf think they have bad form or in fact they're just moving pieces, the portions of their body and their incorrect order just what stand uply, a great golf coach talks about a lot. And then the last S is stakes. So how do you fail your proof, Behavioral Changer? How do you fail your proof practice so that you create the carrot and the stick, so that there's a consequence, sort of building in an insurance policy, that you actually do what you're supposed to do, whether it's vocabulary cards or going out and lifting weights or whatever. Then there are other parts, sort of in the advanced level of the metal learning where you're looking really closely at frequency cramming, how to cram like six months of culinary school into forty eight hours, which is something I actually did with the help of a couple of chefs and it was super, superintense, but teaches a lot of interesting principles when you try something like that. Or in Code Day, where you take really slippery material like Japanese characters, or memorizing a deck of cards and sixty twos or less, which one world champion and memory taught me how to do. The how to take materials really hard to grasp and turn it into something that's easier to grasp. And that's the general process and it took me a long time to figure this out because if you look at, let's say me learning languages, if failed in Spanish for multiple years and decided that I was bad at languages until I stumbled upon a few things in Japan when I was there as an exchange student and I learned Japanese in a year using comic books and...

...judo textbooks. So I learned Japanese to read, write, speak in a year. Then I refined it, learn mannering in six months, refine it, refined it, tweaked it, refined it, German and three months and then Spanish in about eight weeks. So I've just been refining this process or over the last, you know, decade or so and finally feel confident enough in it that it can go to book. So that's why it's taken so freaking long. Well, it's an exciting proposition to him. I'm looking forward to reading. I'd love to grab four or five languages in the next four or five months. So maybe not first attempt for me will be that quick, but I only speak this Canadian Australian language. So now is there an example right now that you could tell us that you're personally learning? And I'm kind of hoping, because I just saw you update facebook that you booked a private tennis lesson. I'm a big tennis fan, that maybe tennis is on the cards here for what you're currently learning how to improve. Is that telling you tennis is one I'd really like to get better acts. I'm kind of a caveman. Whenever I've tried tennis, I just hit it like a baseball and doesn't work very well. So tennis is one I'm absolutely am going to dabble with it, try it out, see if I see if I enjoy deconstructing tennis, and if I do, I'll definitely stick with it. Surfing and Indonesian, Actually Bahasa Indonesian and surfing, and very interested in because I could potentially do both at the same time if I go to Indonesia. So those are two on the horizon for me for sure. And what I would emphasize is that when people see my bio, they think that I've had this, you know, incredible life start to finish and massing all these incredible skills and it's just not really true. Like eighty percent of it in the last few years, and it's because I've just I've settled on this process for acquiring all this stuff and when people finished for our chef, what I want them to believe wholeheartedly is that rather than becoming world class and one or two things per lifetime, they could become world class, like top five percent in the world, in one or two things per year. I really want people to believe that and to go after these things they've assumed they could never be good at. And you know, whether it's playing the guitar or who the Hell knows anything? Anyway. Yeah, I get super passionate about this. I like that goal. I think that's I'm trying to think of the person listening to this who might still be at the phase where they're working in ninety five job and they they raising a couple of kids and looking after a spouse or maintaining a relationship, and just finding thirty minutes in a day to read your book is the first challenge for them, which seems quite distant from the idea of mastering one or two skills a year. I guess I want to know the answer to questions to him. Like to answer the question for the person I just described. Is there a process you would suggest they go through? It? Maybe even read your books in order is the way to do this. You know, sort out the money, sort out the body and then sort out the wisdom for that person listening to us. And I'm M also curious to know what an average day in your life actually is. Now, when you get up and what you have for breakfast, and what do you get on the phone and talk about Silicon Valley deals you're doing and while you hopping on a plane to go learn surfing and body where you can learn the language as well. Like, how does a day in the life of Tim Ferris go? Oh Man, well, let me answer those in orders. So I think that for somebody only has thirty minutes a day. The good news is I always recommend, no matter how ambitious someone is is, that they start with the smallest possible change that creates a big impact that they'll actually do so. For fat loss, for instance, thirty grams of protein within thirty minutes of Waking Up. Just have a shake. You have a hundred pounds to lose. Do not start with going to the gym. And I took my dad from me a five pounds of average faut laws to eighteen point seven five pounds in four weeks of just adding thirty grams in the morning. No, to exercise. Don't worry about changing your meals, just the protein. So starting small as where you want to go in terms of the books and reading them in order. I think the order I wrote them is probably a good order to read them in, but you could even read the four hour chef first, because the good news is the underlying thread is twenty analysis, like finding the twenty percent of activities or people who produce eighty percent of what you want in life, the outcomes you want, whether in business or elsewhere. That's the same in all three books. So I feel like the principles that you can apply everywhere are reflected in each of the three books. That's the goodness. Kind of the same toolkit for all three. As far as my average day goes, man, I don't really have an average day. I do have certain routines, though. I mean, like this past weekend I was in Los Angeles taking a sniper course with snipers from the La Swat team. Why? Why? Don't? Because I was just interested in it and I met a navy seal who introduced me to the head instructor and he's like yeah, I'll go with you and like coach you through it. I was like, well, not every day that you get that kind offer, so I'll do it's not very much fun bring guns to the airport,...

I'll tell you that much shipping guns around us. TSA is not like that very much. But for instance, like this week. Well, this week is a very eight typical because it's sort of launch time. But THIRTY GAMES WITHIN THIRTY MINUTES OF WAKING UP, a mix of way protein isolate and my cellar caseine. Wake up I have poor tea, so I put on the water, put on the kettle and I have Chinese poor tea, which has some really interesting help benefits, fat lost benefits and also lightship like a Christmas tree, which is useful. And say a few days a week I do three to five minutes of the POSTMA Meditation, seated but leaning back against a wall, so it's very comfortable, and I listen to one track, one music track, and I use that as my state que. So I'll just listen to one track, super short, three to five minutes focusing on breathing. That's it. And then for this week, I tend to batch tasks on a daily or weekly basis. So rather than trying to do, like phone calls for half of the day, emails for a quarter of the day and then a quarter of the day doing ABCD and E. I really try to do today all day phone calls. That's it's been all day phone calls. And then other days, for instance Fridays, I try to reserve for all of my in person meetings, like catching up with people, lunches, drinks, happy hour, breakfast, whatever. I try to do all my inperson stuff on the same day and I find the cognitive cost of test switching is really minimize that way and you can just be in the zone for a longer period of time because your brain gets in the flow of doing one type of thing. And then typically at night I like one or two glasses of red wine as my habitual wind down and then I like to either watch like a comedy or read fiction before I go to bed to turn me off of problem solving mode. I like to get out of problem solving mode and sort of transported outside of my head for for the last thirty to sixty minutes of the day and then pop in a mouthpiece so I don't grind my teeth, put on my eyemask and go to bed and wake up and see what the next day brings. Exactly right. So I've always been curious to him about something I'm sure you you can explain a lot about. Have you always been a writer? No, no way. Is there more to the question that there is. I'm when did you start? Okay, so I've never thought I was going to be a writer. I did take writing courses here and there, partially because they are required, but never thought I was going to be a writer. I did take one class that very greatly influenced me, however, which was called the literature of fact in college and is taught by John mcphee, who's up staff writer for the New Yorker and is when the Puel Ser pride. So he's as good as he gets and his course was really, really eye opening to me for a few reasons. The first was that I remember when we got our first writing assignments. Back then he said don't be concerned, you're all good writers, and now is why's just wondering as he handed them on, like what's this preamble about? And then I got my my writing back and his red marks, there's more reading than the original black ink. I put down and he tore ative pieces and there were all these superfluous adjectives and ridiculous adverbs and like, sentences that were flowery but at the end didn't add any value. And what was really fascinating about that was that as my writing improved, as my writing became clearer and Crisper, my thinking improved, and so my class, my grades and all of my other classes went up. And how is me? It was it when this is happening? This was senior year in college, so I have no idea early t s, I guess something like that. And then I had to write my senior thesis, learned to hate writing yet again and promised after graduating that I would never write anything longer than a short email for the rest of my life. Clearly that did not work out as planned. But the only reason that I ended up writing the for our work week was because I enjoyed teaching and I was invited back to Princeton to teach a high tech entrepreneurship lecture twice a year, just one day each time, and I had feedback forms. I always wanted feedback, you know, that's my thing right tracking feedback, and one of the students in the comments section of the feedback form, in pretty typical Princeton snarky fashion, said, I don't know why you're teaching a class of fifty students. Why don't you just write a book and be done with it? And so I got this stupid idea. My had, you know, this this seed planted, like what if I were to write a book? Like I don't want to last thing I want to do. That be ridiculous. But like, I wonder what I would write. Like, if I were to write a book, what would it be about? What we teaching up that class? Thought Him. was that for our workweek principles or something different, how to build a profitable startup or business without outside financing and also how to use direct response advertising and things like that to do so. So at that point in time, you know, I was actually taught that specific class from Argentina when I was doing tango and like having my own sort of crisis and walk about around the planet. So I started at...

...night I would go to bed and I have these stupid ideas about the book and I just take notes on my bedside stand to get them out of my head so I could go to sleep, because I'd really bad insom me at the time and this stack of notes just grew and grew and grew and grew, and eventually I explain this to one of my buddies who was a writer. Just joking, I was like, yeah, I have books worth of notes already, like ha ha ha. He said, Oh, well, you should send to my agent see what he thinks, and I was like okay, and so send it to a few of his friends, not just one where agents. Everyone was like yeah, that interested except for one guy named Steve Hansel and who's still my agents to this day. He's like, yeah, we should make it a book. Absolutely totally get it. And we put the other proposal. Sent it out to a ton of publishers. Only a fraction replied. Twenty seven people replied. Twenty six people said Hell No, and in pretty rude terms usually. And then one, the final crown, bought the book for a pittance and nobody expected anything really. I think the initial print rooms twelvezero copies. And here we are, accidental career. Amazing. So, and now you're a blogger as well. You write some fairly lengthy blog posts. Do you do any other forms of writing? I'm not sure if you want to count twitter and facebook? DRIFE, no, no, I'd say you know the blog and the books, and I think I'm done with doing thousands of experiments on myself for six hundred page books for a while because it takes a ton out of me. I mean, I think it's just brutal. I mean, but I cut two hundred fifty page from the for our chef and it's six hundred seventy pages still, but it's choose. You're an adventure books a lot like the for our body. I don't expect anyone to read more than a hundred pages at a time because you kind of dip in and dip out the stuff that you want. It is amazing that you're basically your late night brain dumping to try and get the sleep was the cainalyst to create a book and lead to the career you've had with the for hour series. Can you maybe tell us, though? I'm sure this is not how the four hour chef came together. This wasn't late night brain dumping and doodles on little coffee paper or anything like that. This was a coordinated experimental traveling on the world. Can you explain from the point of conception of a book like this, to going about the actual experiments and recording and tracking results, to then actually sitting down and writing the book. Did you backs press all of that the way you like? You doing a day of interviews today? Did you do you know, a month of traveling with chefs and then a month of writing the book? How did you do it? Yeah, I did it mostly that way. One catastrophe that hit me, which really screwed up my plans, was my right hand man, like my CEO, right in the middle of the process, had a bunch of family crisis and had to stop working, basically, and so my shield against the outside world, which was allowing me to focus on the book, disappear, and that was a total disaster. So I really had to get good at time management and organization to an extent that was like multiple, multiple magnitude of order, beyond anything I've done before. Total disaster. I mean I had not been to like the breaking point since like two thousand and this project definitely took me there and I think some of my best work came out of it as a result. But the short answer is, you know, the book idea crystallized when a few things happened simultaneously. Number One, I really did want to write a book on learning, but I was looking for the most entertaining context to do that through. A good friend of mine, also around the same time, said, you know, would be really fun, because these other books like you go out, you try everything, you learn everything and then you tell people. He's like, would be really fun for your readers is to see you start from total idiot and a skill ground zero, clumsy and totally terrible, and then walk them through the process of getting good at it. And these all happened at the same time. I was also, around that time, feeling this very acute, like digital malaise where I wanted to start building things with my hands. I just like closing the laptop and having done stuff virtually just wasn't enough. I wanted to build something like a, you know, birdhouse or whatever, but it was inconvenient to like go to a woodworking shop. And then I watched my girlfriend, who learned to cook, why, watching her grandmother cooking and I was like wow, well, I eat three times a day. Cooking is kicked my ass many times. Maybe I should try cooking. And know, all these things happened simultaneously and that's how the idea started to come together. Well, unless this is about a couple of years ago too, or you years ago right, probably two years ago. And the other thing that was happening is, you know, people who are on the for our body were like a board with this, this and this, like I need other types of foods. I'm really bored of eating like can beans every day. And so it's like, well, what if I could make a cook book that was actually a book on learning, where all the recipes are slow carved compliant, but nobody will know because they're amazing and never be never be hungry, except for the cheap mails. Those are epic, but that's a separate story. And like what if I could wrap it all into one? That was like a year and a half, two years ago, and then sold the book to...

Amazon publishing, which was a first, and front of the New York Times and everything, and that was quite a process because Amazon was just getting into obviously publishing. So it's a big risk. But my feeling was I've done the traditional thing twice, I'd like to try something new, like I'd like to experiment. And then the actual writing process was very different from the first book. So now I have tools and organization that I just didn't have that time around. So now I use every note, the application, ever note, for almost all of my research and gathering, all the bits and pieces I use for any design elements or capturing visual inspiration or anything like that. I also use every note. But in addition to that, for interacting with my team's that was a huge headache with the last two books, was all the email and the word documents and oh terrible. So every note. Then to write, I write in a program called Scrivener, which is usually used by screen writers and novelists, but it's great. It allows me to have all of my documents in one view, so I'm not like opening all these different windows were and having a crash and all that crap. So scribvener then for any kind of design feedback, because this book has one on the fife hundred photos in it. I use sketch for screen shots, where I can just point out things I want to move around or change, and then I use screen flow. So screen flow allows me to just take video of my screen as I talk over it, with video or without video, and that saves dozens of hours and the heartbeat of all this. I've two main home basis for all of this stuff that I've mentioned. So one is dropbox. So I'll put like, all the videos, all the screenshots, everything into dropbox so that people can download them at their leisure and they're all centralized. And then for communication, rather than relying on email, I use base camp. So base camp by thirty seven signals is what I use for. For instance, right now I have one project is for HC, for our chef launch right and that's where all the information for my calls this week are and the calendar for all those calls. Then I have for a see site, which is all the for our chef website related stuff for HC side bars. That's for editorial stuff and so on and so forth. So it's very systematized now and that's kind of my work for this current book and probably the workflow that I'll use for anything I do moving forward, although I'm taking a break from this book nonsense. And before we talk about your future, which doesn't include books, how long would it take? Like? Obviously, loook like this is not a narrative where telling the story. Maybe it is because you've been telling a story in your other books, your own sort of story. Do you write it all at once? So do you sit down and do an experiment right about that? How does it come together? Yeah, so this book is highly, highly narrative, really narrative, because I really think that storytelling is the best way to teach. So there's a ton of storytelling in this and the way that I write it is typically getting notes from anything handwritten to digital as quickly as possible. So typically I'll take my notes by hand, then I'll go through and I'll highlight the pieces that I think are interesting, I will number those in the order that I think they should appear in a giving section and then I'll put them into something like ever know, for instance, I find that all of my friends who right consistently and put out a decent amount of content that's good, right best between ten PM and eight am. So they either go to bed really late or they wake up really early, and I think that's really simple to explain. I think it's because you you get it's easiest to concentrate when the rest of the world is freaking a sleep, not on the Internet, like knocking on your door. So I write best, I synthesize best, after ten PM. What that means is I'll do all of my interviews, all of my experiments, everything like that during the day and if I'm doing synthesis, and sometimes it's like a week at a time of just experiments. But when I do my synthesists almost always between ten pm and I stay apolate. So I'll do like ten PM until I run out of steam and if the spirits moving me and I'm in the zone, I'll keep on going until I face plant. But that's my general process. This is another key when I'm structuring my books. The choosing an adventure aspect to my books, where you can read them out of the chapters, out of order in many cases and so forth, is fun for the reader and it's easier to digest, I think. But it's also easier for me to write because if I get stuck on a chapter, I can skip to something else and keep working on that. Then if you're writing a book that has a really strict sequence, it's very difficult to do that because you could write one piece later and then you go back to write something earlier and like a man, now I have to rewrite this, this and this, because each piece is dependent on the next. So I really try to make each chapter a selfcontained magazine article, the beginning, middle in an end, so I can move it around. I like that. It's a nice way of feeling a sense of completion to as you completely section. Oh yeah, it's great. Otherwise you're just like a freaking book really, Oh...

...my God, and it's like looking at something on your kindle where you're like really been reading for an hour, I'm only like point five percent through it. Oh my God. So you mentioned base camp and a group of people who are working with you. Who are they and what do they do? Well, it's different for different phases. Right. So, for the for the actual book production side, I had probably maybe a dozen photographers working at different times, many of which I supervised. I had some photoshoots that I supervise the New York City and San Francisco Myself, illustrators, a handful of illustrators, many chefs, people being interviewed, many of which were interviewed by me, some of which were interviewed by people I hired as professional interviewers who had done journalism and from magazines, newspapers so forth, for the launch. And then, of course, designers and it was like running a startup it was very much like running a thirty or forty person start up, without a doubt, and had all the hierarchy necessary to do that. On the launch side of things, I have publicists in the US, publicists who are going to be working overseas, some which report directly to me, some of which report directly to like an executive publicist that I interact with. Then I have team of people that, for instance, you've interacted with, I think Alex, maybe Ryan yes, who had knox yeah, who are spearheading my digital organization for launch. Then I have all the people at Amazon, who've actually been awesome to work with because they're really like aggressive, Nimble Tech Company. You wouldn't think of like a hundred billion dollar companies nimble, but they're really freaking fast. And Amazon publishing has the benefit of being a startup. It's new, you know, so they're scrappy, which I love. So I've director of marketing that I deal with, their editors and so forth, of course, but it's yet another like Swat team that I'm working with on the the marketing and promotional side. So it's super exciting. But with a project of this scope it's been really, really important to find people I think our world class and bring them in and to do things that not only I don't have the bandwidth to do, the things that they'll do better than I can do. So I think I'd be become better at selecting talent as well over the last few years, which is a skill on to itself. The Best Book I've found on interviewing for that type of talent is topgrading, but the old addition, not not the new additions, which are kind of just upsells to like programs and nonsense. The old addition that had set in the book itself is what you want, like the first edition, the original top grading. Yep, okay, I guess that explains how you brought together your team, and I assume that's a mixture of local and contracting overseas, the Old Philippines, Indian, Ukrainians, that wherever the best talent is, man, I don't care where they are. I mean I had people doing illustration and Singapore. I people doing illustration in Australia. I had people doing audio for video that we're putting together in, you know, Estonia, Lithuania. I don't care where they are, as long as they're really, really good. So yeah, definitely a mix of people, domestic and overseas. Okay, now tim will start to wrap this up. I'm excited about the book. Obviously it's amazing to see what goes into something like this too, and you hear broken down like that. It's a big job. It's not a case of sitting in a cafe and writing a couple thousand words a day for a few months and you're done. You've put a lot into this. But you've also said that this is potentially lev me, not your last book, but you're not going to do it again for a while. Of course. You know you got to be careful when you say things like that up because you never know what happens next year. Right, yeah, what are you thinking then, for the future? Like, well, what's still floats your boat? Is it shooting people in sniper school or no, you're shooting still targets US really, although I find that what are you shooting? And I'm like, you know, abandoned kittens. They're pretty slow moving. Let's get the fourth action. Some people believe me. It's like my Iq test. But I'm really excited about honestly, is teaching and books are just one method of teaching. So I'm thirty five. I don't have too many years left of this like running around doing crazy, ridiculous stuff to myself. You know, once I have a family I'm not going to want to do all the extreme human guinea pigs stuff because it's just too much. And I do all that pushing the envelope so my readers don't have to. But I would still like to do some. So I really want to experiment with television and video and the visual medium. So I could see TV or some type of episodic teaching with crazy, crazy experiments and environments and settings as my next step. I think I'd really enjoy that. And you know the idea, because I've done some TV in the past, and the idea of just being able to film an entire season and two months and to have the entire year to look forward to that stuff and to have teams who are working on post production, so I'm not like reading my own Goddamn Chapter Seven hundred times myself. It's very appealing and certainly before I'm not willing to take some of these physical risks and, you know, jump off building or whatever. I'd like to capture that and be kind of fun to have a diary of that stuff. So we'll...

...see, but that's where I'm leaning. HMM. I mean, you can even begin that with webisodes. That seems to be the place Peo will start now. Yeah, yeah, certainly could. I mean, jess is, it's like, I know you look at some of these youtube channels. I've met some of the superstars. It's like they have five times as many youtube subscribers as they would ever get on a cable show. Exactly. So if you're it's amazing. It's just a yeah, the leverage is there. There's too many channels now for one show to get that big, I think. So that's something about YouTube. So that's sort I think I'm I'll probably be playing around next okay, we'll look forward to seeing that. Tim Look Forward to hopefully one day getting down to San Francisco and hanging out with this crowd. I'm I'm assuming you have some middistinct friends that you hang out with on a regular basis down there too. Oh yeah, yeah, they make me look like Gee calf, and we might be. What's funny is like when when I hear people say like Oh man, you're so intense and you seem so productive on Mike. You should meet my friends, like I'm purely a product of my pure group. They make me look like the Laziest, most disorganized guy you can imagine. So it's a good care out here. She definitely come and hang out, have some wine and some good food. All right. So to wrap it out to him, obviously four hours chef. Where's the best place to get Info about that? Yeah, for our chef, I mean Amazon's gonna be the cheapest place to get it. Probably definitely designed it to be the optimal experience in print, although the digital be great, like I kind of planned it up by two page spreads. But for our CHEFCOM will have all sorts of goodies on it. And then the one offer for people if they're interested, if they buy three copies of the book. It is the ultimate holiday book, and I feel very comfortable saying because I killed myself to make it, that. One thousand five hundred photos, tons of illustrations, Calvin and Hobbs, supermodels, got something for everybody. Still be cold, Hob supermodels, of those two separate things. Yeah, this are two separate okay, but if you get three copies of the print book, you know to four gifts. Just send the Amazon receipt to three books at for our CHEFCOM's and the number three books spelled out, obviously, at for the number four, our Chefcom and I will invite you to an exclusive one to two hour Qa, live Qa with me the week after lunch and I'll grab a bottle of wine. You can ask me anything that you want. So if you get three books, there's that as well. But either way want people to at least start pushing a little bit on the things that they've held off on trying to learn, because there are adventures to be had and you're doing them all the same time. So it's a inspiring it's it was to say the least. Put the links to clarify those details along with the blog post. It goes with this podcast and the transcript as well. Damn. That's it. Any last words before we say goodbye? Know what I would say is just in this sounds morbid, but this is part of the reason why I really do you know, I don't have any problem with hard work as long as it's applied to the right things, and I think that's clear if you read the for our work. We can like the reason that I bleed out my eyeballs for a book like the For our chef, and this was this was really brutal process to put this thing together, but it's because I've had some of my friends passway in the last few years, whether through accidents or sickness, and it's like life is short and I think that the most incredible force multiplier that you can possibly have is by like doubling or tripling your learning potential, and that's something you pass on your kids and everything. So sounds kind of somber, kind of serious, but it's legitimate, and so I just encourage people to take life seriously. It's nonrenewable, so at least as far as we know. So, and I would be thinkather, and I think you'd be the first person to agree, that just because you pass thirty or forty or fifty, doesn't mean you're learning capacity decreases. Right, not at all. And actually I can prove that adults learn language is faster than kids. And plus it's like talk to any three year old, like their English is not so hot, like you can do a lot better. So you absolutely can tackle anything. I mean Colonel Sanders started can tell you bright chicken. He was like sixty years old, so it's never too late to get started. All right, that is the second interview with Tim Ferris. I hope you enjoyed it. What I really appreciate and respect about tim is how multidimensional he is. He is gone from being, you know, your typical side Hustle entrepreneur to becoming a very wellknown respected author, despite not being the kind of person who loves to write to then graduating to become a fullblown angel investor, doing incredibly well, connecting with some very smart people, some early startups that today are multi billion Deil a companies like Uber and spotify. Then he transitioned to a becoming a essentially a podcaster and has become one of the most wellknown podcasted so he's got a bit of a MIDAS touch. It seems like everything he does turns to gold. We can tell why, though. He's a smart guy and he puts in the work to do all these experiments and to learn what works and just to do good marketing and do good content. You know, that has been certainly a consistent key throughout everything. He's a great founder, he's a great marketer, he's a great content creator. Now all those characteristics are very much what I focus on here at the invested capital podcast. So I love getting angel investors and start up founders on the show, certainly people who are very successful with...

...growing capital, creating cash flow and then investing that capital into other streams of income that quite often are income streams that run without you at like for a lot of us, we start with a muse last side business, like Tim that allows us to break free. Then we create income streams that are not dependent on our labor, we systematize our business, maybe we have an exit and then we become potentially investors in whatever vehicle for investing we like, whether it's Crypto, property, other startups by angel investing or some sort of venture capital. And that's the kind of person that you're going to hear from as a subscriber to this podcast, fested capital. So if you're love hearing from Tim, you'll love hearing from all the other guests I've had on the show. You can go back and listen to many other startup founders and investors in the back catalog of vested capital. Plus, to make sure you get all the new episodes as I release them, you have to to subscribe so hit that plus button, that bookmark button, that follow button, the like button. If you're doing this on Youtube, wherever it is, you happen to be listening to my show, subscribe and that way you'll get everything as I release it, and tell your friends this episode with with Tim Ferris might be the perfect episode to open the eyes of a certain family member or spouse or colleague at work or just a friend, a person who's important in your life who needs to hear this sort of advice from a person like Tim. That might break them out of certain patterns of thought that they're stuck in that you feel are holding them back. So just send them to Vesta capital episode eighteen with Tim Ferris, and I'll get all three interviews, as you are enjoying right now. And speaking of which, let's dive into my very first original interview with Tim Ferris, all about his first book that put him on the map, the for our work week. Here we go, Timothy Fair so, Tim Ferris, the author of the four hour work week, which is a book I just finished reading. Thanks for joining us today, Tim, it's for pleasure. Thanks t having me. This book is literally everywhere at the moment. I it's it's certainly very prolific. It's the best way to put it. So you have to explain for the people that have not read it before and maybe haven't heard of Tim Ferris. What are you all about? When, what have you done and what's the book all about? I'll try to get you the nutshell. So I'm a guest structure at Rice University and High Tech Entrepreneurship and over the last three years or so I have traveled through more than twenty countries automating both my myself, my own life and my business. So seeing to what extent it was possible to outsource and automate your life in a digital and a flat world, and the combination of the content of my Princeton class as well as my experiences over the last few years, really looking at things like virtual outsourcing and outsourcing your life is be for our work week. That's the content of the book and it also contains case studies of people I met along the way who have really designed ideal lifestyles for themselves by understanding that there are three currencies in a digital world and in descending order for importance, those are time, income and mobility. So really using time and mobility to multiply the lifestyle output of your money, essentially. So one thing I talked about quite a bit in the book is that people talk about being a millionaire, but what they really want is not to have a million dollars in the bank, but the lifestyle that they perceive is limited to people who have a million dollars and realistically you can do that with fifty or sixty thousand dollars quite easily in today's Day and age. So that's the book. As far as my background, people often ask me to what do you do, which is of course the hardest question for you to answer, because what I do for income and what I do with my time or two very different things. But I compete as a fighter, I've been national champion and kickboxing. I hold a Guinness World record in the Tango because I competed in Tango and Argentina for six months. I've been on television in Hong Kong and China as an FBI agent and I fift series. I've been a break dancer on MTV and Taiwan. The list goes on and on and all but I'm also the founder and see of a company with sales, distribution in more than fifteen countries, with somewhere between two hundred three hundred full time and contracted employees. So I do have a very strong business side as well. That's the nutshell actually. Know. One last piece start background is I grew up in a very low to middle income family. My parents never made more than fifty thousand dollars that you're combined, and I've been working since age fourteen, so I don't come from an extremely financially privileged background either. Okay, so given then, your background, your you have middle income parents, what point in your life did you realize that you maybe you didn't have to work terribly hard in order to live the kind of lifestyle you want to live? Because I'm assuming you you weren't born with this inside and you'd go straight away and create this fantastic lifestyle. You have to learn that through experience without be right. That's absolutely right, and I think it began with a book I read when I...

...was fifteen actually, by Dan Kennedy, called how to make millions with your ideas, and it exposed me to things like private labeling and licensing, things that I've never considered before. I began to realize that it was possible to separate income from hours so you didn't have to work for an hourly or an annual rate. It's been an evolutionary process for me, I think. Another point was when I was at Princeton, I worked for eight dollars an hour in library attict and now there was no heat, there's no ventilation whatsoever. It was a miserable experience and drawing back on what I had read in a few interviews I'd done for different magazines, I actually formed a seminar to teach people different accelerated learning techniques in the monics things of that time, and I charged fifty per person and end up making more than fifteen hundred in my first seminar, which was three hours long. So I realized at that point that this could actually work. And the limitation on that model with the seminars was of course that if I didn't license it and I didn't find it terribly interesting after the first few weeks that in license it, it's still required me to be present. So I began looking at ways of productizing that expertise so that it would be more scalable, so that I could sell a thousand dollars as easily as I could a hundred or even, by extension, sell a million dollars as easily as I could a thousand. And I really didn't put those principles into practice until I would say two thousand and one, two thousand and two. So it took me some time to actually sit down and implement them properly. You're you're twenty eight to twenty nine years old. Twenty nine right, so you know, like we'm taking twenty eight this year. So I mean to even get to that point at this young age is quite it's good to have that realization from the early day that I hate to be realizing that we were not after self employment situations by the time you are fifties or something like that. So I'm very true. Yeah, I'm curious though. I mean, obviously the principle here is to have a four hour work week and there's a lot of people I know from my listeners and my readers who they're at usually across roads. They definitely have a strong interest in entrepreneurship and running their own business, but they're trapped in full time jobs and that they know the standard story, that is that they work very hard during the day to come home they're too tired to do anything else. I mean, I've read the books. I've got your advice from that for the people who are who are employed, but can you give this the a nutstell explanation of what you do teach people who are in that situation in order to start creating some of those freedoms so that they can essentially work less and play more or, you know, live that the kind of lifestyle that you're talking about? Sure, absolutely so. If you're in a full time job that you perceive is requiring you to put in eighty nine years a week, it's very hard to develop the entrepreneurial income sources that I talk about one section of the book. The principles can be applied even if you remain in your job, but certainly the automation of income is much easier if you do have some type of Mus as I call room. Explain to muse. Explain to me. So amuse when people say I want to start a business. I find the term business to be too ambiguous, because a business could refer to eliminate stand on the same way that it refers to a big five oil conglomerates. I find it too amorphous to be of use. So you can start businesses to change the world. Like a body shop, you can start business is to have them acquired or to reach an IPO. But in our particular case I limit the scope of business to a vehicle that provides the income necessary to actualize your ideal lifestyle in terms of having and doing. So what is your target monthly income? That is, you know, if you want to have an asked to Martin D be nine and go to feed you once a year and have X Y and Z and do x, Y and Z. What is the average monthly cost of that, and then what is the most efficient cash flow source to get you to that figure? And that's amused. The only purpose of amused is to free your time and satisfy your financial needs and wants as it relates to that target monthly income. So the first steps that you need to take, of course, number one is to define that target monthly income. So trying to get to the for our work week before you define your desired outcome is a feudal exercise. You really need to take a step back and stop reacting to overstimulation so that you can reassess your direction and what you're spending time on. A very easy way to create that space to begin with is, and this would be an example of elimination versus organization. So I'm not a very strong proponent of time management in the traditional sense because I feel that it doesn't scale. There's a limit to the number of tasks you can put in outlook calendar and the number of things you can consume and digest, it Themli, in a day. So I focus on elimination. So one concrete example of that is limiting the number of times you check email per day and batching at so what I mean by that is you could create an auto responder, and this is sometimes called vacation auto response, that tells everyone to send you...

...an email, dear, all in an effort to scape the inbox and get real work accomplished, or because of pending deadlines or increase workload. I'm currently checking email at eleven am and four PM, whatever your time zone is. If you need an urgent response before one of those two times, please contact me at and then you provide your phone number and thank you for your understanding. This move to effectiveness and efficiency so I can serve everyone better. And what that automatically does is it creates the breathing room to focus on, first of all, defining what your target monthly income is and what your target lifestyle is. Secondly, reassessing the vehicle, ie or full time job to see if it's getting you closer to that and then, in all cases, both with your full time job and ultimately the business that you create, the news is doing a very strict eighty twenty analysis and identifying what the twenty percent of activities are that produce eighty percent of your desired outcomes. So that outcome could be profits. So what twenty percent of my customers, what twenty percent of my activities, what twenty percent of people I associate with, are producing eighty percent of my profit, and then ruthlessly eliminating the inverse of that. So the twenty percent of the people and activities that consume eighty percent of your time. And if you do those two things, even in a full time job, you can begin to focus on being productive instead of being busy, because most people, since they're in a nine to five, five office environment or they come from that environment, even when they start their own company, they believe that they have to be doing something at all times, from nine to five. So they invent minutia and the and those minusia begin to drive out the more important tasks. So the four steps that I outline in the for our work week are the commonalities I've found among people, both employees, CEOS and entrepreneurs, that has enabled them to have a for our work week, or somewhere between a forty hour work week and for our work week. So ten hours, fifteen hours, whatever they choose, their input will be. And the steps are definitions. But we talked about a few examples of that target. Monthly income. They twenty, analysis elimination, which would be the doing the inverse, AB twenty, so eliminating the activities and people that consume that time. Then you have automation and liberation, and I talked about liberation with employees, full time employees quite often, because there's actually a broad spectrum of entrepreneurship between full time employee and Full Time entrepreneur or full time business owner. So I use the term entrepreneur to refer to someone as the way that it was originally coined. So Jean Baptiste Jb say coined the term entrepreneur to mean someone who moves resources from an area of low yield to an area of high yield, and that could mean that you're full time employee who simply negotiates a remote work agreement, perhaps one day a week, and then extend that to to three days the weeks that you have the freedom to eliminate on important tasks or minimally important tasks, and then could evolve naturally to being a moonlighter or someone who splits their time fifty perhaps using those remote days to focus on their their own muses after they've eliminated some of the non essentials, all the way to the full time business owner, and I say business owner is opposed to entrepreneur, because most entrepreneurs are very good technicians. It's a term that Michael Gerber would use from the NF. They're very good at doing a specific function and they end up becoming business managers because they can't let go, and that's why you find entrepreneurs end up being run by their business as, not the other way around. So your goal should be to be a business owner and have a business that runs without you, so that you don't need to make the small decisions and you're not in the middle of the information flow, as opposed to outside of it. So those would be a few concepts to keep in mind as you're trying to make that migration from full time employee WHO's too tired to do things at night to someone who creates time and is able to use it in the way they deemed most exciting or fulfill right just the summarize, so I have this right and everyone else. As it's straight, it would be the twenty rules. So you're eliminating tasks that don't provide much output for you in your work environment and then slowly negotiating a means to work remotely and demonstrating that, despite the fact that you do work remotely, you actually produce the same or even more output for the company working for, and that frees up some time to start creating some of these muses you're talking about, you know, or to get some cash flow happening and then slowly reducing to pendency on your full time employment check for your livelihood. That, in a nutshell, yeah, I mean in nutshell, that would be one approach. Just some other options that I want to put out on the table for people to consider is most employees, particularly good performers with valued skill sets, underestimate their leverage so another very simple option would be to say, okay, I'm not going to check email. This is something you would basically proposed Yourr boss. You Sair. I could look, I want to thirty percent pay, an increase, and I'm not going to answer any email at night or...

...on the evenings and I want to spend Fridays at home at a Home Office. And if you're in a position where providing that would be less painful than firing you, you know, nine times out of ten there's a way you can frame it so that you get that. So I just want to throw that out there because there was a gentleman recently who was an attendee when I spoke at the Web two point conference in San Francisco Or, if you know, Jeff Besos and Eric Spit were speaking, and he said, okay, well, I'm going to try this, but if I get that fire the I'm going to blame you. I said I was fine, you know, give it a shot and I told him to ask for more than he expected to get and he sat down. He sent me an email about a week later and he sat down with his boss. And this is amazing because he went way beyond where I would have gone, but he asked for three days at home per week. He has for pay increase. He asked to be judged on performance instead of presents, so his billiboll hours were converted into completed project x and he asked for a whole laundry list of about ten things. And then the end of his email, I said, miraculously, they Greek to all of it. So don't underestimate your leverage. It's a huge pain in the ass and very expensive and time consuming to replace good employees. Yeah, they never know until you try. It's amazing what can happen. I know there's probably plenty of stories of the reverse where people have had a lot of trouble with their employers who are just maybe they're not in a very senior position, so they don't have much leverage because of the type of work they do. Given that circumstance, what's the best advice, like if you're clearly facing too much opposition from your employer to get that sort of circumstances at a case of well, you actually start looking for a different type of employment situation or you actually quit your job. What's the advice? Oh, yeah, I mean honestly, elimination is often a much better solution to fixing a seemingly irreparable situation. So for anyone who's ever been fired or laid off, they realized pretty quickly that it's usually not the nightmare worlds over scenario that people who haven't been fired or lay it off believe it to be. And quitting isn't either. So I have a chapter in the book called killing your job because, you know, some people want to know like, okay, well, I have this boss, he yells at me, give me a blackberry, he calls me on Saturday evenings and this, this and this. I can't do anything. What should I do? And I say quit your job. But the hell are you doing? Taking a kind of abuse? I mean, honestly, most people are listening to this call or not. In a third world country, we're not going to have healthcare to provide for them if they take a two or three week hiatus in between jobs to find a new one. So I mean there are cases where that's the best option, and even in lower and positions it is very expensive to replace and train New People. So you have to present it in the right fashion, though. I mean you need to present things like remote work as a business advantage, of business solution, as opposed to a personal perk. So you wouldn't say I hate my commute and Mike, you know, bob the CO worker, you know cubical invader, drives me nuts, I want to work at home. Today is a week. That's a personal perk. You would need to say instead, number one, take a step back and assess exactly how your performance is measured and what your contribution to the profit loss is, if you have one, and you could say, okay, you know, I actually spent last Saturday working because my family is out of town or what have you, and I was able to produce twice as many bill blowers and seventy five percent of the time, and that was without any type of confirmation or back and forth email with you or person's A, B ANDC. So it's saved me time, increased company profit. It also prevented the type of back and forth, time consuming communication that happens when I have I am interrupting me and phone calls interrupting me every three minutes in the office, and that really surprised me. So you know, it saves me time, saves you time and actually will help us reach our new quarterly income goals. Would it be possible to take let's say Thursday and try that one day, just a onetime experiment this week or next week, and see what happened? And when you propose it in that way, it's very hard for someone to just say no and you need to learn how to ask good questions. You don't say can I do this, you say you know, I'd love to test this just once. You know, is that reasonable? And it's very precise when you ask these types of questions. And in the book one thing you might remember I talk about is always assuming the person is going to say no and having a contingency plan and, you know, a fall back offer, as well as three to six responses to the expected objections, because they're going to come. So when you start with that and you walk into a presentation of proposal prepared, you'll usually come out with an improved situation. Very rarely will they just reject it out of hand if you present in the right way. And if they do, guess what, you just need new boss. Right. So it's all about frame me the question. So it's what's in it for them and not what's in it for you. So much right. Yeah, I think you just kind of pretty much the core advice that I see a lot more to it, but really that's that's the cord vis of people who want to start moving towards a four hour work quick you probably had a lot of interaction...

...with a lot of people who are trying to replicate what you're teaching there. Do you find that the biggest stumbling block from most of these people is is the mindset or sense of fear than anything else, like, because if you give them the tools, which you clearly do, and there's a lot of people who have been don't follow through with the tools, what is the stumbling block? The roadblocks? Yeah, I think the road block is fear. But it's not just fear, it's ambiguous fear. And this is why I spend so much time on this. When I was first counseling students and then also my friends who've gone through some very interesting careers, and you know, I friends who sell companies for like four hundred and eighty million dollars, eight hundred fifty million dollars, and the existential questions don't go away. What I mean by that is money doesn't solve most of the problems. The existential the bigger questions that people have. So retirements out, it's not a solution. And when you step back and you ask yourself, what's preventing me from creating, from designing the lifestyle that I want now, as opposed to thirty, forty years from now, you usually come up with a number of things, and it's very important. Just like goal setting, to be effective, needs to be very, very precise and measurable. What I call fear setting is analogous to that, but applied to fears. So as soon as you defined fears very, very clearly, and I'll give a personal example, you tend to be able to overcome them. And so in my particular case, I reached threshold in mid June, two thousand and four. I was working ninety hour weeks. I realized it was unsustainable. I had gone through three very good relationships and destroyed all of them because I was too consumed by my business. And Yeah, big bummer. And you know, it was a real wakeup call for me because I realized that my life and the business couldn't co exist at that point and I took a step back and I decided that I wanted to take a trip to London to decompress, pull myself out of that environment that's speeded a good environment, and really reassess how I could either redesign my business or shut it down. Before I took that trip to London, and so it was going to be a four week trip, I's like, Oh my God, I would never work. You know, I can't leave. I check email two hundred times a day. How am I going to take a trip to London? What am I going to do about this? What am I going to do my apartment? You know, what am I gonna do with all my furniture? And there's just excuse, excuse, excuse to put it off. And what it came down to us. I had a fear of the unknown. So when I actually sat down one day in what was the epitome of my you know, don't happy, be worry phased, I sat down I was like, you know, what's the worst thing? It could absolutely happen, and I was like, okay, so I leave, someone breaks into my apartment, steal some of my furniture, okay, fine. You know, someone steals my identity and I lose what's in, let's say, one of my bank accounts. Okay, fine, you know, I'm traveling abroad and I come to the conclusion that my business can't coax thisst with my life and I shut down the business. Okay, fine. And when I looked at what are the worst things that could happen, and if all those things happened, what would I do to recover? That's the most important second part. So what are the steps I could take to recover? What would I do? Like, let's say that I'm not projecting in the future, but let's say all these things just happened yesterday. What would I do today? And as soon as I started asking this questions, I realized that the Oh my God, my life is over scenario really wasn't that bad. It was actually quite easy to recover from and it would take a little bit of effort and time to get back to baseline, if that's what I wanted. But I already have the experience. I knew how to resume my current a path later. If that's what I decided to do, then I've seen that again and again worth for example, I have a friend investment banker, another friend who's a lawyer, and they both were like, oh my God, it's going to look terrible on my resume. If I have a gap, it's going to be a disaster. Because they wanted to try their own businesses and they both tried their own businesses and both of them ended up succeeding. But what was funny is even a year, year and a half later, they were still getting job offers in both of those industries and they could pick up exactly where they left off, even with that resume gap. Most people don't realize that the resume is for you, it's not for somebody else. So really defining fears very clearly. You know what's the worst thing that could happen if I consider doing x, and how would I recover it? How could I get back to where I am now if that were to come to pass? That's why one thing that I felt was so critical about making the the book accessible to people is really expanding their comfortable sphere of action in small baby steps. So you have these comfort exercises that I propose people to take advantage of. And even at my Princeton classes, and isn't something I talked about much, but I actually challenge at the end of each class for the last few years where I basically say look, I know all of you listen to this and you might think some of it's interesting, but almost all of you are going to walk out and do exactly the opposite. So here's what I'm posing. You take one principle and apply it in this way. Or, you know, try to get ahold of three celebrities who are impossible to reach and get them to answer a question you want them to answer. And who ever does this in less impressive fashion gets a free trip around the world, anywhere they want. And two things are amazing.

The first is everyone says, Oh my God, sign me up, I want to compete. And then, out of a class of about sixty people, three people actually do it. That's the first. Because they expect that everyone else is going to do it, they overestimate the competition and underestimate themselves and end up completely shooting them off in the foot. So about three people of sixty will try it. And then of those three people, just to give you an example, last year, they're able to get in touch with people like George Bush senior, the CEO of HP, comcast, Goldman Sachs, the list goes on and on and on and on, just because they're willing to try it. So it really being willing to test and then evaluate the worst case story realistically and coping to recover. That would be a long answer to a short question, but yes, it's good stuff, though in biguous fear is a very bad thing and it's inactionable, but as soon as you define it you can overcome it. Yeah, and I can see you're quite passionate about helping people do that, which leads me to my next question. Is, when did you sit down? First? Initially in the Stide, you willanted to write this and help people with this area of their lives. And and what's, you know, your grand purpose with all of this? What's in it for Tim and what's in it with you know, the bigger picture? Well, there are a few things. I've always enjoyed writing and I've studied with some good writers, but never planned on writing a book. I actually find it very hard to write. Find it very difficult to write. I was in Argentina preparing for the World Champ pinchips and Tango and I did my lecture at Princeton remotely via phone and I had just tons of follow up email because it was the first class where I really talked about my concept of lifestyle design as a replacement for long haul career planning, and I really dove into a lot of the the principles and ideas that I now teach their every semester. There were tons of questions and then one student, because I wrote back to him and I said, man, you know, I've about thirty pages of email responses I've already written. Seems like I really hit a nerve here. And he wrote back and he was like yeah, well, maybe you should just put it all into a book and be done with it, ha ha ha. And I think that's how a lot of businesses start, you know, it's like, oh, that'd be really funny if ha ha ha, and then the idea just doesn't go away. So That's how the book started. It just wouldn't go away. The idea was keeping me up at night. So I put together a proposal, did my homework send it to Jack Canfield, who I recruited as a mentor of mine. You know, five steted to do that, by the way. Okay, I can. I'll tell that in one second. So okay, I sent him the proposal and basically said, Jack, you know, I'm I completely full of crapper is there something here and then he said no, I think you have something here and he made the necessary introductions for me to get an alist agent and then we sold the book. It's very easy to sell book if you get nailist agent. Who Behind you? So I'll answer the grand plan and then I'll tell you how I got jacket. Grand Plan for me is to have a huge disruptive effect with the book, meaning that it catalyzes an enormous backlash against an overwork culture that I think is just out of control, because you know, more hours does not mean more productive and you know more connectivity does not mean happier and more successful. I think things are really out of control. Mean that the average work week is now seventy hours. Forms reported that recently, and it's just going to get worse. It's going to get a lot worse and less people take some very dramatic and uncommon steps. So that's the bigger picture. I want this book to be a manifesto for people. I really want it to be a movement. Okay, but taking that is that further than given that disruptive effect happens and obviously people reduce the amount of work they're doing. Presumably they're getting happier as a result. Right, that's that's obviously a big goal out of it. Do you think that result in a cultural shift in some way that may have an even greater effect than necessarily on a micro level? Oh, absolutely. I think that it will help take the concept of a results only work environment, which is already been implemented by companies like best buy and in some cases like Netflix, where you can work whenever wherever you want, as long as you hit certain performance goals. I think that it can help get that to the tipping point where companies will have to adopt that to compete against each other. And so you know, I've spoken to Google, I've spoken at Paypal, I've spoken, I've been invited to speak at some of these these innovative companies here at Silicon Valley because of that, and I see this having a much greater effect than just on an individual personal level. I think you can have a huge institutional effect as well, and even a governmental effect. I want you to get into that, but I mean as far as a mandatory unpaid vacation days and things like that. I mean I very grand plans for this, but one step at a time. So as far as what's done for me, I mean there's a lot in it for me, but just seeing the ideas implemented and recognized in some cases for I think the value that they offer is huge for me because I've seen it on a microscale in the Princeton class and I wanted to magnify that effect on a huge, national, international scale,...

...and I think I can do that. So as far as all I got, Jack, I'll keep it short just because I know I don't have too much time left. But I volunteered with a not for profit group called the Silicon Valley Association of Startup entrepreneurs here in Silicon Valley. So it's a not for profit that focuses on fostering entrepreneurship and they always have very good entrepreneurs, you know, titans of entrepreneurship and CEOS, etcetera, speaking at their events and a very good way to meet these people is to volunteer with one of these not for profits. I volunteered to actually produce an event, so to be the program share essentially for a big event that I was going to focus on entrepreneurs who've created a multimillion dollar, in some cases multi billion dollar companies with no outside financing and it was my job to recruit all the speakers, so I had the credibility of this not for profit behind me and I went out. I got people like the founder of electronic arts, the inventor of that she a pet. That means anything to you guys over there, sadly enough, it does to me great now, as the guy's brilliant though, and really a brilliant distribution guy. The guy named Ed Bird, who was the first person to bring creating mon a hydrate to market, the most popular sports supplement of all time. And then one of the other speakers I want to get was Jack Canfield, and it was very hard for me to get ahold of him because he gets fathered by everybody. So I bought plane ticket, FLEW DOWN TO LA to go to Book Expo, which is large book trade show in the world, probably in the country at least in the US, and I basically stalked him. I just waited in a room where I knew it's going to be speaking until he showed up and walked up, stood right in the aisle in front of him and stopped him and I said, Jack if you don't know me, my name's Tim Ferris, then working for a really wellknown entrepreneurial not for profit in Silicon Valley. I would really like you to speak at our event. They're going to be a lot of incredible people there. I'd like to introduce you to who are also at the same plum level as yourself. I'm not sure if you'd be interested, but I want to do this with you. And he said, okay. You really didn't know what to say because I just kind of jumped out of a chair to pop up in front of him and he and he gave me a business card and he's like all right. So I mean an email and ten emails, twenty emails, thirty emails later, I got him to come down and speak of this event, which was very hard to do because is his usual speaking fees are like thirty to fifty grand plus. It's not eating. Any case, I got him to come down and speak and we became friends and we just kept in touch. Saw I really engaged in a conversation with him and I was interested in what he'd done. I didn't pitch them anything. I didn't have anyhow I was asking for any help, but I ended up being interviewed for his book the success principle. So I'm in that book and then I was also interviewed for his more recent book. You got to read this book, which is, you know, about the the books that have changing. It was life. Yeah, so I have a like a chapter in there. So finally, when I decided to do my own book, it was just a natural fit. So I knew him for five years or so before I ever asked it for anything, just keeping in touching at once every six months, every eight months and nine months and just kind of following each other and what we were doing. So that's how it happened, right. You had a relationship. Yeah, that's that's thing. That's I mean it's very similar to how I purchase this book. You know, I had relationships with a lot of the bloggers you've seen talking about the book. It was very similar. I made the effort to get to know these people because I found them interesting and I was interested in what they were doing months before the book ever came out. Then, you know, it's funny because I get these emails and phone calls like you know, what's the best way to pitch bloggers, and I'm like, you know, I'm not sure. You find people you're interested in sink have a lot of shared DNA who would find your book of value, and then you you offer it with absolutely no expectations and send it to them and hope for the bad. Don't pitch really, yeah, I know exactly. Okay, well, we're almost at that point where we got to end this call, so I'm going to end with it's getting to be a famous question now for the people listening to this call who are right at the beginning of who haven't really start any of this process of going towards either starting a business or reducing the amount of work they do their employment, what would be your number one piece of advice to help these guys just start the momentum happening? Sure, okay, so the number one piece of advice is sit down and define in quantitative terms exactly what you need to experience your ideal lifestyle in the here and now and not in the deferred life plan of retirement. So sit down and there are actually worksheets and calculators and everything that you can use for this on my website. Doesn't cost me anything. It's go to four hour work weekcom you can spell it however you want. I have a hundred your health for it. So for our work Weekcom and you create essentially a spreadsheet of this is my ideal lifestyle, these are all the things I dream of doing in retirement. And then you calculate the average monthly cost. And when you do that, what's amazing is you realize that it is often much more inexpensive than you think and all of a sudden...

...the idea of spending the most capable years of your life doing something that is anything less than extremely exciting becomes absolutely repulsive. And that's the type of system shock, the type of pattern interrupt that most people need to get them to take the first few steps. So really defining what your target monthly income is and your ideal lifestyleist. That would be my recommendation.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (86)