Vested Capital
Vested Capital

Episode 19 · 1 year ago

(EP19): Wil Schroter, Founder of, Blue Diesel,, Acquired Zirtual,


It's hard to summarize all the success of Wil Schroter. He's founded so many companies.

Today he's founder of, a business education site and suite of tools and resources for entrepreneurs, some of which were previous startups by Wil (Fundable, Bizplan) and some were acquired (Zirtual, Clarity).

Wil got his start early online, initially exploring bulletin boards with a commodore computer. He then launched a web design agency, Blue Diesel, in 1994, again very early to a new industry.

His agency grew, later merging with a more traditional design agency, creating a full suite offline/online marketing firm. In a surprise success, the firm landed a massive client worth $250 Million in billings, beating out many larger agencies. 

Wil eventually exited his agency ownership shares when the company was acquired. As a youg guy of just 27 he had earned enough money to retire, yet he decided to get back into entrepreneurship.

I enjoyed this part of the podcast because Will explained why it was a mistake to be the founder of so many companies after exiting his first, yet why he wanted to and what his life was like back then working 16 hour days.

After a massive anxiety attack that landed Wil in the hospital, he realized things had to change (he was also about to have his first child, adding to his motivation to stay healthy and alive!).

This experience informed his decision to create, and how he would still have multiple entities, but they would be integrated to serve the same customer and thus be easier to manage and grow together.

Towards the end of the podcast I asked Wil to explain how he is able to market and attract customers to so many different companies over the years, and also to briefly touch on his current personal investing strategy.

Enjoy the podcast.



Hello, this is yarrow and welcome to episode nineteen of vested capital featuring my guest will schroder. Vested capital is a podcast about how people make money and put their capital to work. I interview startup founders and will wow, he is certainly a startup founder. Many many companies he's founded. I also interview Angel Investors, venture capitalist, Crypto and Stock Traders, real estate investors and leaders in technology. So will with today's episode. I've known will, at least from a far digitally online, for many years, mostly though, as the founder and CEO of startupscom. That is kind of like an umbrella brand. It's an education business for founders, but it also has a bunch of companies under it, some of which were started by will and some of which were acquired and brought in under the startupscom brand. It's actually quite clever. will explain this during today's interview his overall kind of philosophy around startupscom. It's kind of basically providing an answer to every problem that a founder will have. So under that brand, besides just the education and support services startupscom provides, there's Biz plan, there's clarity, which is a service offering mentors of Biz. Plan is obviously this planning fundable, which is crowdsourcing funding for your company. Lawn track and Zertual. Zertual is a virtual assistant company and it's actually one of the reasons why I feel like I know will so well. I did a lot of deep dive research into when Zurchual was sold as a company. It was started by Mar and Kate. I knew her from the world of blogging. I had a few conversations with her. She'd been on my podcast and she started this amazing company, Zertual, which unfortunately had a bit of a negative experience with just some mismanagement of funding and cash flow in order to pay the staff. I won't go into that long story now, but the short version is after all that kind of ended, will stepped in and bought out the company and Zertual now operates as a service under STARTUPSCOM and because I run in box done, we have very similar services. So I'm constantly, you know, up against searchual, among other competitors in the virtual assistant space. So I feel like I know zertual very well. But this episode really is all about will and his history, and his history is not just about startupscom in fact, he spends the first half of this episode talking about Blue Diesel, which is his very first company, started all the way back in ninety four. It was an agency, so basically building websites for companies, but not just like everyday businesses. He actually went out there in cold called some big companies, landing clients like best buy, bank one and Master Card. My even asked him how exactly do you get Master Card as a client with your little Web Design Agency all the way back in ninety four? I'll let will answer that question. You'll hear him answer it in this interview. Amazingly enough, that agency grew sixty five million dollars in billings in a few years without any outside investors. He later merged it with kind of a traditional agency. Then they landed a client which was basically a two hundred and fifty million dollar account. It was huge. The fact that their agency got that deal compared to some of the other bidders for it was massive. Obviously ramped the growth of their company up to an incredible level and eventually their company was acquired by another company which was then float on the stock market again. will explain those stories. The short answers. He did exit from all that and he was certainly he didn't talk specific numbers, but I got the impression that he was pretty much able to retire at that stage if he wanted to, but he didn't. He was only twenty seven years old, so he died back into entrepreneurship kind of started a bit of a like an incubator, way way before incubators and accelerators for startup companies or common, in the sort of mid two thousands. So that was to me. This is really,...

...really the fun part to listen to. Will talk about all these companies that he was attempting to run with himself as the CEO and founder, raising funding from multiple companies, trying to grow multiple companies. He was doing sixteen hour days. It was crazy all the way to the point where he gave himself a massive panic attack, ended up in hospital, and that was like a big reset button for him. He was about to have his first child as well and he basically decided I got to take two months off, I got to reconstruct how I am an entrepreneur, how I am in a founder. We started to sell off some of his companies and that was where the genesis for Startupscom came into the story, which still is an opportunity for will to explore multiple companies and kind of enjoy running an enterprise along multiple verticals, but within a much more homogeneous kind of a strategy. You know, it is all about helping founders test with different verticals within that space. So it's kind of easier to manage that way. And actually ask him because I was curious. It sounds like you're still running multiple companies, but now you're not having panic attacks. So what is the difference? And will describes, you know, how his current philosophy in the framework for running startupscom and all the services and brands under that, and that's an important thing to listen to because it's actually quite smart the way he says you can apply a specialist skill set or like a certain staff member across these multiple brands. For example, someone who does papercreep marketing can do it for all the companies under the one brand, so they can be checking the ad campaigns each day and just managing that, as opposed to say will, for example, trying to do paper click and then we're all the other hats to the same time. So it's it's a nice framework for specialized ace and even if you are running multiple company, sort of running multiple companies in the structure will has with startupscom. I also asked will to explain a little bit about his marketing strategy, which was actually really interesting to hear about because he has grown so many different companies in so many different industries. You know, things from Lee swapping. I'm not sure how much he was involved with that. There was unsubscribedcom, which was a company about dealing with junk mail. Then he was dealing with like running television production, so many different things and of course he had to grow all of them and use his marketing skills. So I asked will what is is go to strategy for getting marketing, getting attention, growing an audience, getting customers for a start up today. Well worth listening into that in this interview for that alone. And I also write the very end ask him what is his investment strategy, since he's been quite wealthy from a very young age. So he gives an answer you probably will expect from that one. Okay, really excited to give this interview to you with will Schroeder, the founder and CEO of starrupscom. Before I press play on the interview. Just a reminder, I've already dropped the name. I am the cofounder of Inbox Donecom. We are a virtual assistant company specializing in managing your email and also doing your calendar and admin tasks. But what we train and hire for is people who have superior communication and they're going to take over everything that's going on in your inbox or your inboxes for you personally, for your company, could be for other members of your team, your staff. You might already have an executive assistant or a personal assistant. We can work in tandem with them, freeing up time in their life so they can do more for you as well. So we can work with them, with you, with both of you together, in tandem, and basically give you two people to inbox managers who become part of your team. Reply, to manage your email, organize your calendar, protect your time, guard you against time wasting meetings, making sure everything you need to know is in that calendar, making sure the most important emails you need to know about are presented to you, but everything else that's not critical is handled without you. We do the replying, we do the organization, we do the inputting of information in task management software, working with the rest of your team so we can keep you out of the loop. That is our goal. Fore, you up simplify your life and make it that you have more hours in your day, just like a recent kind of ours, Linda...

Artisani of artisani accounting. She had this great way of describing what inboks done is done for her. She said, you have rescued my mournings. That means she's got her mornings back. She's no longer spending those few hours in the morning dealing with email and her calendar and so forth. Now she's actually using that time to create a course, because we're the ones dealing with her email and managing her calendar and so on instead. So if that appeals to you, head to Inbox DONECOM, book a discovery call and tell us all about what you need help with and will assign you a couple of great people, some specialist, well trained. We have a very unique hiring system. That really this is what's our special sauce. We've been doing it for four years now. It's like a ten step process and I think that's what makes the difference. So would love to tell you more about that as well, but that's not for about. INBOX DONECOM you're here for the interview with will, so let's dive into that right now. All right. Well, hi, thank you for join me today. So I feel like I kind of know you a little bit, will, more than I probably do, because I've listened to you on a lot of podcasts and you know, you show up here and there over many years now. I was actually diving a little bit more into your bio and yeah, you've been doing this longer than I have and there's not many people I can find who I can say that. so that's really honey. Yeah, obviously startupscom is sort of the catch all company that I think I first probably heard about you. It may have been I'm not even sure. I know I did a deep dive into the story of Zertual at one stage, maybe got a year ago. Yeah, that was purely almost like competitor intelligence. I run an email management company. Yeah, not exactly the same as virtual but obviously another virtual assistant sort of thing. And that I knew marn because she was in the blogging space before and I have on my podcast and spoke to her a few times. Just for those listening and obviously there's a whole story around urtual. It huge story. Yeah, it's actually floaded, and then you stepped in later on and took it over. I'm actually kind of curious what it's like now to today and how it's all going and everything within startups. But maybe you can give us the best summary of what you're most wellknown for and what you're currently working on. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I was talking to my wife last night when your head in bed, and I'd been on one of our founder group talk to startupscom where we get a group of founders together and kind of share how we're all doing, and somebody's asked me how long I've been doing this for and he said, Oh, about thirty years, and I stopped and I was like damn that that's so long time. Hire life, my entire life, and on top of that, it's kind of the only job I've ever had. You know, I started my first company when I was nineteen, which means I mean prior to that I had like you know, I was getting paid per hour for some dumb job, but for like a year and a half it's not like I really had any other job. You don't look old. Yeah, well, I appreciate that one, but it got me thinking. I was like, Damn, like it's been a long time. It's been a long run. And so the backstories this. I start my first company when I was nineteen. We grew that company very quickly. It was the dawn of the Internet. It was one of the first web design companies, literally building some of the first web pages on the Internet, and that grew about six hundred and fifty million dollar company. We sold that in two thousand and one. I then built kind of an incubator for all my own stuff where I was building all these different companies, and I'm sure you and I ran into contact with each other back in the day. Then spun out eight companies. Last three revengure funds and companies. Some did okay, some didn't do okay. Terrible idea. If you ever want to go do it yourself, and happy to get into why. But about, I don't know, eighteen years into all this, I kind of stopped what I was doing and I said, honestly, I just want to work on one thing and I want it to be the thing that I do for the rest of my life. I don't want to make this the means to something else. I just want this to be the end, and that was the genesis of startupscom. I just want to be able to sit around and talk to founders all day like you, and just talk shop all day. And so now that's what I get to do, I guess, to sit around with founders all along and talk shop. And that was the genesis of how startupscom became a company. Yeah, and starpstockcom is it's like one part... I mean I remember every time I go there I feel like, okay, I know it's primarily an education company, but then you brought in, I mentioned urtuals orciles under that brand. Now it's e Battisis and services, lawn track, fundable clarity. I think clarity might have actually been my gateway to first ever coming across Startupscolm Sage, enough Biz plan and I feel like I want to talk to you about how you even put all this together and how it all works together. Yep, but every time I hear you talk will I feel like even if you go back to that very first story I was reading, it was blue diesel. Right now, that was an agency that very early days, one thousand nine hundred and ninety four. I'm reading your linked in case you're wondering. Some ninety ninety four to December, two thousand and two eight years started when you're nineteen years old, and you just threw up this number, sixty five million dollars, and you say we grew it. I kind of love to like even maybe we can start there and we can move forward through how all these things happen. An Agency in ninety four obviously would have been new. Like it's kind of funny. Now it's like the most basic and almost boring business model out there, right to a company online, but back then people needed websites if they even knew it. A website was to be did notice? No one no notice of the Internet yet. Right. So can you maybe take us through the highlights of that sixty five million dollar journey and when we you the owner, like when, yeah, it's a sixty great and needed you. Yeah, did you sell it and pocket sixty five million at the end of all that? Like how did that play? I'll explain that. So it ends up happening is I'm in college in Ohio. I group in Connecticut, but I came to Ohio to go to school at the Ohio State University and I'm in college for me a year and a half and I hate it. I love learning, but I can't stand sitting in a desk and listening to somebody drown on. I can't listen to myself drawn on. And so I had been online since one thousand nine hundred and eighty four. Now that's going to sound odd because that's like people really army serve a well, no, I was on a commodore sixty four computer with a three hundred bond modem plugged into the back of my thing, tying up my parents line with a bulletin board system. So long before any of the stuff with stuff. And it's plenty of people that are ancient relics like me that can appreciate that entire era and it was awesome. Will what was the name of the Bulletin Board? I've read a few books about the early sort of bulletin force. What was it? Well, so here's the thing. Back then it was kind of like your personal web page and every one of them ran on your computer, right. So it would be like if everybody had a web page sitting on their hard drive and you were calling their computer like on your phone to access that one page. Right. So back then it was very sequential. I called your computer and you called my computer. That was it. It was like two fax machines. But all the fundamental things that became the Internet, like message boards and uploading and downloading, etc. Chat, we're all happening back then. So I had learned to code, not well, I'm not that bright, early on in my career, just well enough that when the Internet came around, really the web in ninety four with the advent of the browser, I had just been doing it forever. And so I had this idea, now that the Internet was about to become a thing, that I was going to build a company that built these web pages. And it sounds so dumb right now, but back then there was like me and ten other dudes doing it at all. Well, like that was it. And I remember going to my guidance counselor and I'm so fired up and I'm like I can't wait to drop out of school and start this company, and she's like wait, what? In her mind, like dropping in a school was like the most horrible thing that could happen, and I was like no, I'm going to go start an internet company. Never forget her response. She looked at me deadpan and she's like, what's the Internet? You know, there was a time. There was a time that no one knew. I remember, yeah, and I was running around at all these companies trying to explain to them what the Internet was. I wasn't trying to explain to them why we should build their..., because there's no one else explaining it to him, but I was going to all these major companies explaining of them fundamentally what the Internet was and asking them to use Blue Diazel to build what was fundamentally their first websites. And so early on, you know, we landed big clients like Master Card, like BMW financial, some pretty big named clients, and we're making no money doing it because I knew nothing about business and I was screwing everything up. How do you land a Master Card? I kind of imagine doing that in nineteen years old. So called them on the phone and I said, can you connect me to the person that uses the word Internet? And I remember I got connected to the one person in all of Master Card that knew what the word Internet was, and that was our client. I it was wow, while its different cowboy era, right, okay, and so fears into it. We end up working with this small agency in Columbus Ohio, a traditional agency that had been around for twenty plus years, and we had this idea, what if we merge the agency? They had about fifty people, we had about a dozen people and we could do both print offline and digital, which kind of makes sense now, but like back then, it was unheard of, right, that an agency could do both and for the most part no one had digital capabilities. So we did. Three months later, in one of the biggest flukes in agency history, we end up pitching a company out of Indianapolis called Eli Lily, who at the time was bringing a drug to market called PROZAC, and we won one of the most lobsided wins in agency history. A team of fifty people want a two hundred and fifty million dollar per year account, and that launched us into what became about a six hundred and fifty million dollar agency. Wow, now it's ringing about. I remember doing my research on you, but a year ago. I maybe it was Andrew Warner, I don't know, I'm mixed. Yeah, yea, I love it. I remember hearing the story going I can't imagine. Obviously the elation of landing a two hundred and fifty million dollar client. But then agency businesses, fulfillment on, Oh yeah, twentyzero dollar client can be a nightmare. So I can't even imagine. Did you suddenly have to hire hundreds of people just to deliver on that? Unbelievable. We hired a person every single day first year. We hired two hundred and fifty people. And this is long before job boards. This is long before like all the ways that we think about scaling a business. Now there's no such thing as outside capital for services business, even to this day, for the most part, certainly back then. So it was old school. You just had to be able to build ours and send in voices and hope you collect. But we made it work. I was twenty two, my partner at the time was twenty six and we just figured it out and it worked out great, and so we sold the business in two thousand and one. So at the point where you got that big client and then leading all the way to the sale, were you more of a CEO directing how things worked over you still, because I can imagine when you started you were probably the guy actually building the websites and then, you know, I was showed it up right, you know, is interest. You say that that actually set like a set of things in motion in my career. When I was at the agency I was doing technology, marketing and design, so I was coding web pages back when code was like forty commands in html. I was doing design in Photoshop and I was also doing the marketing, because I really love the marketing side in addition of sales and everything else, and I loved every aspect of it. Right. I wasn't like I was, you know, more interested in technology than I was in design, etc. I loved every aspect of it. To this day I don't code anymore because codes so specialized. I get involved in every single aspect of our company. I'm our CFO, I'm our lead copywriter with two hundred people, right. So, you know, it's not like I've got to wear all these hats. I love it, I love every aspect of it and I'm all in. But at the time I was running essentially the digital part of the company a CEO, and my partner Blaine, who I would argued did all the real work, was the CEO of the traditional side. Okay, so I feel like I'm asking questions.

I know the answer too, because I've heard of but the listeners will into with the sale of blue diesel, I remember from correct me if I'm wrong, but you know you were like part owner of the next company got sold into and then that company got up by another company. From the correct me from wrong? Is that how that story played out? So far beyond me. It just so either sense for we got bought in two thousand and one. My partner stayed on board. I left to go start of their companies. My partner stayed on board, took the company public, then got bought back by blackstone. I don't know. Maybe got spun out again somehow. It's got like Sixteenzero people that work there right now. I think it's like a seven or eight billion dollar company. I have nothing to do with it right I haven't stepped putting the building in twenty years, so I have nothing to do with with where it is today. But it was a crazy road. Is it called bloodiesel? Still? No, No, God, I'm done. Okay, nothing to do with it. Okay. So what point did you actually exit? Liked it when it got bought out? Did you just take yated. I was so ready to start other stuff. I couldn't wait to go do something else. I didn't hate the business per se. I can stand working for clients. Not My bag. It was not how I want to operate. I wanted to build product led companies and I wanted to be my own boss, so to speak, and so so that's where I focused. So can we time stamped out? How old would you when that happened? Two Thousand and one, so that would have made me probably two twenty seven. Okay. And that exit. Was that retirement money for you, or more enough for the next few years or where? Where was your saying? It's public in some of it's not, some of my actually I'm not allowed to talk about okay, but publicly we sold for three hundred and fifty million in cash. Okay. So I'm guessing at twenty six you're not thinking, well, I'm going to retire on the beach no matter how much you made. You're like, I'm hungry to do more. Oh, I mean twenty seven right, yeah, so, okay, super hungry to do more. But the difference now is you're not starting from scratch. You've had this experience, you've got a name having exited a company Yuch, means investors would be more interested in you. You probably could put in your own capital if you wanted to. So how did you make the next decision? Besides knowing you want to be a product led company rather than a client based company. You know, it's so interesting because that was twenty years ago and again we forget about things right. For example, back then I essentially wanted to take the agency model of having all of these resources, like technology, marketing, design, etc. And keeping them under one roof. But instead of working for clients, I wanted to work for myself. I wanted to be my own client. I had a million ideas for companies and I just wanted to basically have a whole portfolio of companies. And now you see that all the time with like accelerators and things like that, or, you know, incubators would have you. But this was way before any of that, before I had a name. The closest you had back then and the only analog I could point to was bill gross at ideal lab, which was so far ahead of his time, and what he's done his career has just been unbelievable. Like what he was able to achieve, but that I kind of want to do that. I just want to work on a lot of different things. And again, I mentioned this earlier. It's a terrible idea. It sounds like a lot of fun, it's a terrible idea. So is this when, again, I'm going off your linkedin here. I know unsubscribing came in a little later. was that one of those companies got spun out? or or is that it's later? Okay. And so I had a number of ideas. Right. One of them wasn't my idea. It just something that I actually happen to get involved with in a kind of picked it up, as call it, our first client, and it was a company called SWAPOLISECOM and it just allows you to transfer in and out of car leas's. It was incredibly successful. But that was kind of a light bulb moment because within a year and a half of getting involved there was doing hardly any reven when I started. We're doing about three million dollars of revenue on about a million dollars of net income, which back in two thousand and one for like a you know, was essentially a market place play. There weren't many right. Ebay was just starting to become a thing. craiglist was just starting to become a thing. It was very new. In my lightbulb moment was a well, hell, if I can do that with one, what about doing with ten? Right, and building a portfolio of all these things? And I thought about it like property, like investing in property and having all...

...these properties. What I didn't account for was that kind of like having a kid. We you have one, you can kind of handle it, right, because all your problems are concentrated in that one thing when you have to okay, maybe one as a good day, one as a bad day. Once you have three, four, five, six, there is never a day where you don't have problems. Like all you have our problems, right. We'd love to believe that these things are just throwing money at us the entire time. Not The way it works. While one company's getting funded, the next one's getting shut down, probably within the same hour. Right. It was so many cooks in the kitchen. I was running five or six full time companies at that point. While where I was active, like very active, down to running payroll right across all these companies, and it drained the life out of me. It was a great experience because, I'll say this, what I got to do was I got to live five or six start up lives in parallel. Here's where that messes with you, like, your head a little bit. Imagine you and I are starting in company and we're out trying to raise capital and no one wants to give us money. Well, at the time that's the only experience of our careers that we're having. It's just the outcome of that one thing. Well, imagine if we were doing two, three, four, five six in the same day that we're going into pitch investors and they're just dumping their foot on the door. On our way out, we're getting other texts on the way out from other investors saying they can invest in our other company fast enough. Right. It messes with your head because like, well, am I good at this or my terrible at this? Because, like, it's the same day, I'm having two different outcomes. But what was cool about that this kind of led to Startupscom I started to get so much experience about how to do so many things so differently in so many different outcomes and how your life could go that all my friends founders mostly started coming to me and it started to say hey, what about this? What about this? Have you gone through this? And I was like I'm going through so many things that I actually have, and so I started really helping a lot of folks out. I remember Andrew Warner and I sat down before he was starting mixergy, when we were sitting down Sina Monica together and he was pitching me on the idea of mixergy and I just had a million ideas right and I loved it. I thought if I could sit around and talk to guys like yourself or Andrew all day long about startups, that would be my dream job and that's kind of where things could started develop towards start upscom. So I'm kind of curious then you were similar as me. I was like remember as a young guy going I wish I could kind of be owner of multiple companies and doing the jobs I enjoy in each company, for the variety, for the exposure to multiple industries. Foot kind of like diversification. You know, risk management, but you know, it took me until fifteen years later where I could even do that and even then I'm not really doing it. But then I realize angel investing is kind of like that a little bit like you're way, way further removed. You're not involved with the running of the company. I'm surprised. Did you think of Angel Investing at all during this time? Instead of trying to incubate seven, eight companies with you being fully involved, why not just invest in six, seven, eight, Nineteen, eleven and twelve and so on companies and just have a light touch with each of them? Well, I probably should have, because here's what I'd say. I ended up funding all of my own companies right. For some of them we raised some extra seed money and there's a whole story behind that. But for the most part the plan was just to fund all my own stuff. START UPCOM with a self funded company and to this day, almost thirty years running this, I've never written an angel check in my life. My wife and I do not angel invest whatsoever. We've been run a fundraising platform called fundablecom. We've helped people raise over six hundred million dollars in funding. We talked about funding all day long. We do not invest, and I say we, my wife and I make those decisions together. We don't invest because we can't stand the idea of giving someone else our money and hoping they make good decisions. That's that's absolute tortured of this thing. I don't mind losing on myself, but my God,...

...hitting somebody else my money. As much as I know angel investing is a great thing and I encourage people to do it. Just personally, with way my personality works, it is a horrible idea. Okay, so a bit of a control freak going there. Hey will ever comes like a little bit. Yeah, okay. So I'm curious then, and I'd love to talk more about the startup story before I do that. You have like your involved with multiple companies. You're going in one meeting then getting a text about another meeting, good or bad, whatever these maybe I can see the appeal. Everyone has lots of ideas. You'd love to go after every one of them, but we also all have x amount of time and attention in a day and I know you've already said this is not the right way to go about this. So you don't advise people to follow in your footsteps, but I'm just curious how you even able, from logistics and energy and the tension management standpoint, able to run multiple companies, because they should have all failed or one of them were two of them should have been so clearly the winner that you would have been like, what am I doing? I'm going to put my energy in the the winner, you know, feed the growing child and let the other ones die. It's a bad analogy, but basically, you know that's right. It tends to work with business. Did that not happen for your here's what the bet is. Here's everybody thinks it goes. People analogize it to being at a casino, let's say in Black Jack, and making multiple bets and hoping that one of them hits. Right. That analogy breaks down in a few areas. First, in order for me to make multiple bets, it takes the same amount of time, right, so embedding. There's not a time element right. Second, in order for the bets to work, they're not bets per se. In order for bet to work, it takes seven to ten years to make a company great. Right, when you're at the BLACKJACK table, it doesn't take seven to ten years to place all of those bets right. I'll give an example. At the time, this is really what threw me. Right around the time I was Jin the inky. Later, Darmah Shah, who's the founder of hub spot, had been running an online community called on startups. It actually still runs to this day. It's actually great online community, and Darmin should I would talk about online communities and things like that, and I remember at some point he said, Hey, I'm going to stop doing this, I'm going to go do something called hub spot, and I remember thinking at the time I had no idea what his company did. It didn't make any sense to me. Doesn't matter, but I kind of just tracked what they were doing from the sidelines. And then I remember him raising money from Sequoia and next thing I know they're filing to go public. And it was at that moment, this is like seven years later, where I'm like, you know what, Darma started the same time I did, except he focused on one thing. He did that really, really, really well, and he's filing to go public. That's when I knew I'd screwed this all up, because by splitting my focus, I couldn't create more time. So let's say I'm working sixteen hours a day, which I was, and you shouldn't do. Let's say I'm working sixteen hours a day. The moment I take on a second project. I can't put sixteen hours a day into one thing. Again. This is where the betting analogy breaks down. I need every single second of those hours to focus on one thing in hopes to have a hit. The moment I split, the moment I split two ways, three ways, etc. All I'm doing is taking the resources away from what's supposed to be successful to begin with. I'm acture reducing my likelihood of success, which was where I missed completely. HMM, okay, so you're kind of validating at that. As we all say, is the truth as exciting as it can see, it's really best to focus on one. Yet today, if I look at Startupscom it doesn't look like one. It does look like multiple. But I'm sure you've evolved a different kind of framework for making that work, and that guessing it's not you. If I look at these companies, I'm not going to see will Schroeder as the CEO of Zertual and lown track and fundable and clarity and so on. Right now, there's a structure behind it all. So I'd love to talk about how the of all but one of the question. Or maybe can you summarize all these companies that you didn realize? Okay, you were diverting your time across one you mentioned was at least company. then. I know I was just talking about UNSUBSCRIBE, unsubscribe up YEP,...

...which getting rid of knowing junk male. Around two thousand and ten. Could you just list off every one and everything, but as many of those that companies that you were kind of involved with? And also, is it a case of you just selling them and finding buyers or just closing them down? Like, how do you stop doing all the things you were doing? There's two stories there. I'll give you the short version. I'll listen backward if I can't even remember at this point. Sure. The last one we started was called unsubscribedcom. I had this idea of how to get off junk mail. This is long before the spam button existed on Gmail, and I enlisted the help of a friend of mine, Jamie Simonoff, who went on to start ring the doorbell company. So Jamie and I started unsubscribed, together with a another partner, I Josh Roth, who also has a Ceto of ring. That's the one. We raise money overnight and we started to scale the business and realized it wasn't going to be the business we thought it was and we ended up selling it off right. So in that case, adding eighteen months from inception to sell off wasn't a huge exit, but it was enough to get us out of it. Okay. Prior to that, I had started a company called Afford itcom, which was essentially a firm. So this is I started in two thousand and seven, two thousand and eight. Exactly what you think of firm is, is what afford it was right, just too far ahead of its time by now. Pay later, for those who are not familiar with a firm. Yeah, and it was high risk consumer finance at the height of the financial crisis. Not The best time to be raising much timing time right. Yeah, it's all right. And so that before that was a company called got cast that does casting for television online. It was at the dawn of reality television and it was before social networking a whole thing. I've made a hold the whole thing there. That's what brought me to Los Angeles. Amazing Times. Prior to that was coming called Biz Plancom, which we still own, which actually became part of the startupscom framework. Boy, I'm probably missing one anyway. Here's what happened, though. Here's what happened at first we're starting it. It's exciting. We can fund our own deals, so there's really no friction to get these things started. I hire a bunch of my friends from my past life. It's awesome. Years go by and I'm stacking on companies, I'm stacking on responsibilities. Now those companies have staffs and responsibilities and payroll to make and all these things. FAST FORWARD TO I want to put the year in it called two thousand and nine, two thousand and ten, no, for two thousand and eleven. I'm just about get married. We just had our daughter. Now my oldest daughter must have been two thousand and twelve. We just launched what would become startupscom. I just got married, I just had a daughter. I'm at work with my friends at lunch and I don't know what it was, but I remember talking to them and I'm kind of spacing out a little bit and I'm like, guys, I don't feel right and I said I'm gonna drive home like I don't I don't know what's wrong, and didn't think much about it at the time. I hoped my car, I live like five minutes away. I'm driving home. I call my wife and I was like sweeter. Something is wrong. I don't know what's happening. And just as I said that, my heart stopped, like literally stopped, not figuratively stopped, like my heart actually stopped while driving on a highway back to my house. Sweet Right, I'm thirty seven years old. Well, I recovered. I somehow didn't go off the highway, like I got an idiot, so I just drove home, like right. I end up crawling out of my car, I end up laying on the living room floor and I'm staring at the ceiling and I call my friends. I'M A guy. Something's definitely off. You guys have to come get me. I didn't know what happened. They come get me, because my friends are idiots. They take me to a minute clinic, which is like, you know, your local doctor to see if you have a cold or something like that. I get there, the ekg me and like you need to be like the ice you like right now. You're basically having a heart problem, like a serious heart issue. Next thing I know, I'm in an ambulance, and this is all within like an hour of me saying hey, don't feel right and I'm in the ICEE. You, I mean the I see you for two days right, like staring at the sea, feeling I just started a family. I have no idea what's happening. Dr Comes in after all these tests, finally diagnoses me and said you had a massive anxiety attack. I didn't know I had anxiety.

Well, right, and he said look, this is this the whole point of what I said. It's not a good idea. He said. You've been running your body as hard as you can for as long as you can. You haven't taken any breaks, you haven't processed stress or any life events, etc. And your body just gave up on you. It just basically said no more. Funny side note to that. After that happened, after that event happened, I started telling my friends, my founder friends, like, guys, you're not going to leave what happened to me. Like you know, I had this whole event. Every single one of them was like, Oh, yeah, that happened to me too, it happened to you too. How did this not come up? And at the time, this is such a funny thing. At the time it wasn't okay to be transparent and open about these issues. We've come a long way in ten years, right. I can talk about this stuff openly on your podcast. Wasn't the way before. I'd never heard people talk about it, and that was the culmination of me running my body so hard for so long without repriat right, without any option to reset, and that's when I knew I need to change everything. At that point I dropped out of everything I was doing and just stopped for like two months and did nothing whatsoever just to like get my help on board. It was bad. Uh. Yeah, so many thoughts. I'm thinking about Ryan LEAVEC. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but his, Yep, story similar. End It up in hospital and you have to like stop everything. I'm lucky. Similar story where I had panic attacks and anxiety my early twenties. Yes, I was running a business, but because of that, I don't think I ever like I was. I was aware of my body's reaction to things. So I never did sixteen hour days. I always had a sense of rest, work, rest work, otherwise I'll go far to having it. Yeah, anxiety and panic attacks. So but yeah, it's such a common story, sadly, but you know, it is great we can talk about it. So maybe take us for then. So two months of refreshing. You're still contemplating. You've got a childcoming marriage, you never do. Yeah, all the things plus, like do you just go, okay, I'm gonna sell everything down to one thing. I will. or You said start ups was just in its first version. Band. So how did it right in you? So we were looking to launch our next company within the incubator called fundablecom, which was going to be equity crowdfunding. Right Circuit Two Thousand and eleven. Early again, you too, earlier. Everything we'll, I know, right right in. At the time, my thought was, because we learned a lot from BIS plancom, which is an online business playing tool, that no one knew how to start companies, and so I started to kind of build on this thesis a bit that, Hey, you know what, all my friends keep coming to me and they're smart and they want to start companies, but they don't know what they're doing and they can't. It's not their fault. How would you know any of this stuff? How do you know how fundraising works or how customer acquisition works if you're an engineer? Right, like it's so nonintuitive. And I said, so you've got millions and millions and millions of people all over the world. They're all want to start something and put their passion into something, but they don't know how. I can help all of them, like I can give them the answers to the test. I can teach them how all of this works. And so my first attempt at it really was with fundable to teach people the fundraising side, and what we learned, is kind of funny, was everyone wanted it. Wanted Money, they knew they needed money, but no one understood what it meant to raise capital right. They understand how to put together pitch deckt understand what traction meant. You can't just have an idea and people throw money at you. It was a whole litany of things, and so after about a year and a half of running that, we kind of zoomed out and we said, you know what, the problem isn't funding again, the problem continues to be no one knows how to start a business to begin with. So we're going to build a much bigger vision to teach people how to build companies right from the moment they have the idea to the moment they launched. Here's the problem with that. In order to do that, you can't just be education, you can't just be tools. You have to have all of these pieces together, and there's whole companies built around just the pieces. MMM. So we made an entire...

...road map of all the places where people get stuck. So we said, okay, people get stuck at launch, they get stuck on planning, they get stuck on funding, they get stuck on you know, you name it, and then we went out and bought the companies that had done a great job of solving that part of the problem. That's why all those products are there. They're all part of a unified road map. Okay, so now as my chance to ask you how does this work's do you you buy a company? Let's take any of them. I know so you had bis plan and fundable internally already from your previous incubator project. Correct to companies. Continue those we start now. Those two were running with their own like CEOS and team, or were you still working them? Like, how does that work? All of those are just products of there's no hierarchy or reporting structure based on any of those. Okay, so I get up in the morning as the CEO and I think about all of them, like quite deliberately right our customer service team handles all of them. Are Dead team handles all of them and they're all mature products. So it's very different than if we were starting them all from scratch. Okay. So then, for example, with clarity, I know you bought that, Dan Martell, I think was for you. That get up that one from that's a mentoring sort of advice service. Maybe that one is example. How do you buy that and then insert it into this umbrella organization that you're running without Dan necessarily being there, because I'm assuming he left. Yeah, he did of exit. So how does the transition happen? Well, part of it is if the CEO or the kind of the existing team is so built into the product, sometimes you can't buy it because you actually you can't pull it back out. For example, Dan Martel right now is running his Sass Academy where teaches people how to grow. Could I buy that right now from Dan in extract? Dan? Maybe, kind of, sort of, but not really. It's not really a standalone piece of software, where as clarity is. So in that case you buy it, you've got the code, you got the brand, you've got the customers, whether Dan's running it, I'm running it. No one really cares, right, you know? So that fits. If you get something on lawn truck, same thing, right. You got hundreds and hundreds of thousands of sites that have been launched off of lawn truck. No one really cares. You know, whether Jamison debt wilder, the founder, is behind her or not. Not Knocking Jamison, I'm just saying good by him, that it's portable enough. Okay. So, I mean, I know I run in box done. It's pretty much an agency, and those virtual same story. I can't imagine you taking something like virtual or my own company and just I mean you could take the team and replace myself and my cofounder as leaders of the team and the marketing department. Yep, and I think it would. You know, would be some teething like that. But you know, it's funny. I say this and I feel like on the surface it sounds like you're doing the same thing again. Will you're putting yourself at the top of multiple things, and yes, they all connect to this idea of being an entrepreneur and running a business. But selling virtual system services versus mentoring from other entrepreneurs, versus crowdfunding, those are different verticals with different marketing channels, different messages, unless, of course, everyone discovers startupstocom and then you tell them about these ancillary services. That makes sense to me. What I somehow I think that's not the only way these companies have grown. Are there other leaders involved or is it's still the will show on every single company? We've got a great team, you know. We got two hundred people on staff, so you know we got plenty of resources behind this. Were a very flat organization. We don't believe, you know, it's it's me. I've got maybe a half dozen folks that report to me and that's it. Than in every else reports to them. That's it. There are no other hierarchies in their organization. We intend to keep it that way. Our goal is always to hire as few people as possible. People talk about growing and adding staff. If we go from two hundred three hundred, it's a failure and in our strategy. You know, we're one of those those companies that feel like fewer people is better and its workforce doesn't work for everybody. But the difference here is I wake up in the morning, I work with one team, I work with one P Andl, I work with one focus around growing one company, which essentially is startups. Back then, it was not that...

I had six different teams, I had six different sets of investors, I had six different pnls that were very, very different, and I was in totally different industries. In one meeting I was talking about high risk consumer finance and the next meeting I was over at Viacom talking about casting for a show. Right, like you couldn't have been in that's a little bit more different industries in the same day, right, and it's just so hard to keep track of them, keep on top of them. ETCTER, fascinating, if I'm being honest, but I'm good without I want to run start ups for the rest of my life, right. This is all I want to do. And that changes everything, because the trajectory isn't how do we get in and out of this as fast as possible, it's how do we build something that we really care about, that we can work after the rest of our lives and be so happy about it? Okay, makes sense. Still feel like I need another hour to kind of like ask you all the questions up and outs and bolts of this how it all works? Yeah, well, that's a couple though. Okay, so you wake up in the morning and you see we've got this many clients running in Zertual, this many mentoring calls have been booked from clarity. You this many campaigns are running on fundable to try and get funding for their startup ideas. I guess with the other ones, you know, you've got x number of people subscribing to Sass platforms and so on. So it might be a bit simpler. How do you stop and say, okay, I'm going to focus my energy on a marketing campaign to get more people to use clarity versus I'm going to decide to do that for Zurtual or any of the other brands under the company, or even talk to the people whose responsibility is to do that? How do you make it work from a operation side? You know, one of the things I learned when working across lots of companies, you know, when we did it the first time, was that you had so much duplication of effort and you had so many resources that I would argue were wasted. I'll give an example. Let's say you've got a marketing person working at a relatively small product, like a subfive million dollar company. Right, you just haven't grown a past that point. They only have so many resources right at their disposal at that very moment. They can only do so many things. Right. So, by definition, you have a lot of wasted time. Let's say they're managing the paper click campaign. What's the only campaign they have. So like they're spending all day on it, when you have three other ones to manage. You spend half the day on it or third of the day on it. Right. You basically condense your time. We do this across the whole organization. We basically take everything that we do and we use every second of our time in the best possible way. And I'll say this, and we do it in eight hours or less a day. Right. No one works more than eight hours. Right. There's no version of me back in the ICU because I'm all stressed out because I'm working sixteen hour plus a day. Doesn't happen. No one works weekends. Right. We are incredibly efficient because we look at all the stuff that in the past where people's time we're kind of wasted, and we just got rid of it. It's amazing, and I can imagine you can have specialists across the whole companies like you said with the that's a quick person. They're only doing paperclick. Look at all the campaign brands. Right, YEP, at one time, Yep, which which is very close to home, because right now I go in and I'm the one managing paper Click, going I'm sure I'm not the one should be doing this because this is not my skill set. So yeah, yeah, hitting, it's hitting me that one. So what's the future for startups? OCOM like, I know you said you want to do to the rest of your life. So it's not like a case of growing it exiting IPO, or is it? Look, I don't hate money, right, but that's not what we're focused on. At the end of last year we rolled out a really important kind of next generation of our service, and I think you'll appreciate this. It's called founder groups, and what we do is we take eight person cohorts of founders and we bring them together monthly and we dig really deep into what all their issues are. What we learned was, we got one point two million startups in the platform, that we're really good at teaching people how to build startups, but we needed to be good teaching people how to be founders. And it turns out this is an incredibly lonely journey. So we built this service, founder groups, and the folks that are in the service get paired up with other people in their industry and in location, or stage rather,...

...and we're meeting monthly and it's amazing to see, like all the stuff that's coming out of people's heads and the honesty and the transparency. It's awesome. But I bring it up to say it's also the fastest growing product we've ever built. So we have the advantage of having this massive, massive user base that when we introduced a new product like founder groups, we go exponentially faster because our customer acquisition is inherently built in. Okay, just because I'm curious right now, when you say you have that large an audience and you launch something new like founders groups, is it a case of just like I used to do, I'd send some emails to my newsletter and say we've got this thing for sale. Is it as simple as that, or is it more complex? It's kind of where it starts. Yeah, okay, cool, you're a content marketing business to build an audience and then you sell services and you bet, you know, you bet that's important. Yeah, the nuts okay, interesting. So many places I can go with this will. I know we've coming up fifteen minutes here and I want to know how, because I feel like the the mental strain of thinking about all the different things you could do. I know I do this and I'm onny. I'm running basically two companies, really only one, but I still have a coaching business. I have angel investments that their hands off. I have a Solo F on my bill which is a business, but it's, you know, it's solarly. Just put things in the ground and it clicks energy. So it's not that complicated. But I know just from inbox done and I sit there going okay, like you said, finite resources, certain growth goals. I know how to do marketing activities, but yet I'm still overwhelmed because I know I should be doing maybe growing the list or expanding PPC. Even there within PPC there's layers of you know, I getting all the keywords, all the potential target markets I go for. Long Story Short, there's always a never ending supply of things to do, especially from the marketing side of the business, and it sounds like you've worned that hat a lot, the marketing hat, and you've grown. Sure, many companies of clearly very different industries selling very different things. You've made most of them gain some level of traction, from a three million dollar company to a company that you sold for three fifty, if I'm correct remembering there. Yep, what has worked for you? Just tiding how to spend your marketing budget, your marketing energy, your marketing time, and do you find there's a universal answer for that, given now you've had so much experience, or is it really very unique to each company and each person? I think this answer may surprise you. I think the reason people don't get marketing right isn't because they spent it in Seo versus PPC, versus social what have you. I think it's because they don't understand how long it takes to get marketing right. Marketing is a very, very, very long term investment. Right. Here's how we think about especially founders, right, because you know we're silly about this. There used to be the old idea that I'm going to build a landing page and I'm going to run PPC against it and I'm going to know within a month, right, whether or not this thing's a viable product. Right, I've built a lot of products over a long period of time, not to mention launched national brands. No one in their right mind would ever say that that's a viable strategy for marketing. Okay, I'll take that further. That's just a month. Imagine all the products that you use right now. Right, were any of the products that you use? You look around your house, you look on your office built within the last thirty days? Probably not, because products take a very, very, very long time to build. Those brands take a very long time to build. Right. So within marketing, where we tend to make mistakes is we make good bets, solid bets in the right areas, and we don't give them any time to grow. It's the equivalent of going out planting all our seeds and then trying to harvest them the next day. Mike, what the Hell? Yeah, you know, none of this grew. It's like, no kidding, that's not how this works. So for us, when we look at our marketing, we look at okay, we're going to make this investment, it's going to take two to three years for yield. Now, don't mean none of it pays back. Right. What...

...we're saying is, if we make an SEO investment. If we make a PPC investment, it'll take that long to go into the market, to make mistakes, to keep refining into condition the market, which the part, people don't understand. If I run a linked in at and someone sees the add and they don't click, how many ads get clicked the first time people see them? Hardly any. Right, by the way, you need lots and lots and lots of impressions, which takes lots of time in order to build up in order to be successful. We're with your marketing. So what I've found, and it's painful if I'm being honest, is that good marketing requires a tremendous amount of long term commitment in most people just don't have it. MMM, great answer. I love that. At the same time it's also like, Oh my God, so much work, so much work. Can we make that a little bit practical? Or maybe a specific example? So maybe even your current version of the you're rolling out this new a person group, profounder under groups round the groups and it's obviously early day. So you're thinking three years campaigning for that. Do you just start with? Okay, first we go to our newsletter, existing audience and let people know it exists. That will get our first clients. We can see how it's being received and then, okay, it's working. Let's scale this up. Let's run a paper click campaign, let's start writing articles, let's look for joint venture partners. I could keep talking about you know. Let's get on podcast and talk about it. You know, I could go on and on and on. How do you think about this from the action steps you take next? So here's what happened and I'll lay it out exactly how it works so you can kind of get the first hand feel. So a year ago we launched the Beta version. That basically MVP of founder groups, and so at that point all we have to do is we have to find eight people that are in the same industry at the same stage that we can get into a group, that we kind of sign up around the same time, so the first person isn't waiting two months to get placed in a group and we need to get them on the phone so we can kind of vet them a bit on boarded, so we get them in the right group and that takes a little bit of time, but we need to do it fairly quickly. Cool quick way to do that. Let's send a million emails to our list, right. So we don't do it all at once because obviously don't want to get overwhelmed, but you send it in batches. You get a whole bunch of responses where we get on the phone with a bunch of people and this all takes a bunch of time and we say wow, a lot of people are interested in this product. Awesome. Well, guess what, we can only send to those people two, three times through the newsletter. The newsletter is a cool way to get some initial interest, right, but all those people are going to sign up or they didn't. Right after that we got to go recurring. Well, where do you go to get the most number of qualified people that are self identified as founders? You go to linked it. It's the one place where nobody lies about what their titles and maybe somebody does, but generally not. There's almost no spam relative to the other social networks, and you can target with people with founder in their name. Guess what the product called founder groups. We want founders. Go to Linkedin. Right. See Hop on Linkedin, which is crazy expensive, and you start running campaigns and people start coming through. You Shart realize wow, it's crazy expensive, no big deal, right, and you get people on the phone, et Cetera. You spend a little bit, maybe spend tenzero the first month, which is a lot of money, more than most startups can afford. You spend less if you know your mileage may very it. Then you spend twenty the next month, thirty the next month, for to the next month and you just keep ramping up from there. But in that case we're leaning in with our mailing list and then we're kind of picking up with something that's sustainable, like a paperclip campaign. But we're not starting off the hundred thousand dollars a month in our paperclip campaign. We're leaning into it. We could afford to, right, not that we're so rich, but we can afford to. But we won't want to learn along the way because we need time, no matter what. Okay, and then repeat, repeat, as you keep finding new channels and devote our budget. Is that? You Bet, you bet. And so what we like to do we find a channel that's working, we like to beat it to death, we like to exhaust it right before we jump into another, because one of the problems that we've run into over the years is that we try social and it doesn't work immediately.

This goes back to the long term investment. And so then we jump over to Google right and that doesn't work. So we jump over to Linkedin and that doesn't work, you know. And so what we learned was that no matter what we pick, it's not going to work the way we want it to the first time. We got to learn a little bit, we got to give ourselves a little bit of time. So if we're going to pick Google ad words as a strategy, it's got to be the strategy for six months to a year before we go pick something else. By forcing ourselves into one category, we start to learn all the nuances. And guess what, nine times out of ten, the first few months are total failure and we would have jumped out of it thinking it doesn't work. And it's like months seven that we start to see that it worked and we're like, Holy Shit, we'd have overlooked this entire thing had do we not, you know, stuck with it? Yeah, yeah, it's hard to believe that when you're in month six and it is not results that money. Yeah, last two minutes here will my show is actually called best of the capital now and I kind of ask this question frequently. I'm not sure how you're going to answer this actually, because you've had a big exit early on multiple small eggits along the way. So I feel like you've faced the decision of what do I do with my capital? How do I invest my money? Everyone answers this differently. We've got people put in Crypto in very stably TFS. They buy and sell stocks themselves. Some say, Hey, I bought myself property. You know, I did have a splurs and bought some fast cars or traveled around the world. You sound so far. I maybe I'm reading into this too much. As a conservative kind of guy, when you get your kicks from what you're doing with Startupscom and all the other entrepreneurs, how do you invest all your money that's not active, that you want to sort of work without you being involved? I'm a very conservative investor. I manage all my own money and I'm very conservative. And here's the way I look at it. Making a lot more won't change my life, but losing it will ruin me right and so if my liquid net worth doubles, it's not going to change anything and it's not that like become so fabulously wealthy. It's because there does come a threshold were buying more shit doesn't really buy you anymore, right, and a lot of it. We can go on forever on this one. But a lot of people, because they never get to that threshold, they don't really under stand that. I was able to make some money early in my career, so I kind of got to play it all out. I kind of got too fast forward to the end of how life works and I got there. I was a hum what as big a deal as I thought. For example, my wife and I the last house we had was in Beverly Hills, right, think Beverly Hills, Oh my God, you know, so fancy, and it's kind of fancy, but after a few years of being there we looked around we're like, there's okay. It's like going on a really nice vacation and when we first get there at the resort, you're like, Oh my God, this place amazing, it's the best ever, and then after like day seven or ten, right, two to get into the pool again, right, like it just everything has a shelf life, right. So, from a lifestyle standpoint, we don't really need that much. We just don't we're not conservative. We just kind of played out all the other choose your own adventure parts of life and they just didn't buy us what you thought they would, and so we just didn't need it. So conservative in terms of investing, this means gold like what is hell? No, so we're like index fun folks. You know it. If we're seeing, you know, eight to twelve per year, a twelve percent return, we're good. Okay, cool. So kind of put it in there, you don't look at it and you're good to go. Pretty much. Yeah, it look in the US markets. Gosh, in the last year, even if you went in a sleepy index fund, you were making thirty percent some days. So you know, it's a little crazy. Wrong. Yeah, all right, I know you gotta go. Will so, startupscom, any other places you want to send people? Find me on twitter. I respond to everything. I'm at will Schroeder WYL SCROT are. And one thing I always tell people on the podcast I'm the easiest person in the world to reach. Nobody believes me. Everything's that's hard. I'm will it, startupscom. If you email me and you have a problem with something, something help with, I will help you right. That's my whole reason for being. I love talking to founders. If there's anything I can do,...

I will do it for you and again, I'm always around, so hit me up, find me, let me help. That's awesome, will, and that's how I got well on the show. I send him a tweet and he said yes, so I appreciate it. I'm easy. Keep up the good work, will, and I obviously I hope to stay in touch. Great thanks for having me. I hope you enjoyed that interview with will Schroeder. What a multi faceted guy. I'm just amazed at how many different businesses he was involved with and the audacity of trying to grow so many companies at once. I have trouble running multiple marketing campaigns at once and he was running multiple companies with all the different things like investing, growing a team, hiring, building the technology. It's just makes me feel stressed thinking about and he was the one doing it all. So it's not surprising that he ended up having a bit of a bit of a meltdown with the panic attacks there and that that obviously, as he said, is not an uncommon story and I'm glad that he shared that because I think it's important for people to know entrepreneurs are not superhuman. You have to look after yourself. You have to think about you as a human being who needs rest, who needs to have parts of your life that are not your business. That's why I love promoting inbox done, because we help you get time back. We hope you find time to spend, you know, time with your family, friends and rest and so on. So hopefully you're thinking along those lines too, and I hope you were inspired and excited and check out startupscom and what will is doing there. Before you end up this podcast, make sure you do subscribe if you have not already, hit the plus button or the subscribe button or the follow button and you'll get all my episodes as I release them. You can also go to my blog, where the podcast is hosted, and if you had to Yarrow Yaarro dot blog, hit the podcast tab, you'll see the episodes there and all the subscribe links as well, and you can dive into the back catalog. So if you see an interview with someone you really like, or maybe you have an interview you found in there that you think of a friend or a colleague or maybe you know a son or a daughter or a niece or a nephew, someone who's a potential founder or currently is running their own company. They would definitely benefit from subscribing to vested capital as well, as well as anyone interested in how people are growing their capital, because we don't have just start up founders like will. I got Angel Investors on here. We've had professional poker players, also venture capitalists and propeting investors, and we've got all kinds of different people coming up as well. So it's good to hear different ways people make cash flow and how they invest that money to grow it over time. All you have to do is head to vested capital podcastcom or share that link with any of them. I need your friends and colleagues and they can subscribe as well. Okay, that's it for me. My name is yarrow and I will talk to you on the very next episode. By by.

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