Vested Capital
Vested Capital

Episode 23 · 11 months ago

(EP23): Kison Patel, Founder Of DealRoom, Digitizing The Workflow For M&A Using SAAS

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Kison Patel is the founder of DealRoom.net, a SAAS platform for managing the lifecycle of mergers and acquisitions.

Kison spent ten years of his life running his own boutique M&A advisory firm, participating in some way with 363 asset sales.

During this career, Kison noted how many processes of deals were handled with very 'old' technology, for example using spreadsheets for tracking due diligence. 

This lead to the idea for DealRoom, which at first as an MVP was an attempt to better document and add a communication layer to the due diligence process.

During the interview I wanted to learn more about M&A, as well as hear the story behind how Kison grew his SAAS company, which is 100% bootstrapped at the time of this recording.

I asked Kison for examples of deals he worked on, how he sourced deals, what's the difference between a business broker and M&A advisory services and we also talked about how he built what he calls a 'media company' within his SAAS as a marketing strategy.

If you're growing a SAAS in a legacy industry or thinking about starting one, make sure you listen to this interview.

Enjoy the podcast.

Yaro

Podcast: https://www.yaro.blog/pod/

Blog: https://www.yaro.blog/

Hello, this is Yarrow and welcome to vested capital, Episode Number Twenty three, featuring my guest Keissan Patel, the CEO and founder of deal room, m, a SCIENCECOM and a merger and acquisition specialist. Invested capital is a podcast about how people make money and put their capital to work. I interview start up founders, Angel investors, venture capitalist, Crypto and Stock Traders, real estate investors and leaders in technology. My guest today, Kissan, has an interesting story because I'm not really focused on any guests before who specialize in the MA space, mergers and acquisitions, which is another way of sort of saying web businesses being sold and acquired by other businesses or sometimes just being funded by private equity or banks, and in this interview we definitely get a bit of a background into that world. Keisan had his own boutique merger and acquisition firm from two thousand and three to two thousand and twelve. It was called transatlantic investments and advisory. They did about thirty four sales for around three hundred fifty million dollars, and I ask Keisan to kind of go through some of the basics of what merger and acquisition is. How did he start the firm? How did he, you know, get his first deal? What did that look like? It was quite interesting. It was around selling gas stations. You know, it's a mural town, so not exactly what you expect. We also talk a bit more about the different layers to merger and acquisition, you know, all the way to hiring a broker to broker the sale of your, say, your website business, all the way up to the big Ma deals you probably hear about in the news when some multinational firm is acquiring another multinational firm and the big finance houses are involved with those deals. So that's going to like the first half of this interview. And then we switch gears to his founding of deal room, which was, or is, his attempt to digitize the workflow of the merger and acquisition process. Now I wasn't initially aware of what that meant, so I had to kind of ask. He's on to explain. So we'll hear how he started his company. It's a hundred percent bootstrapped, very successful now been running for ten years and it's started with a simple idea of just taking that due diligence process and digitizing it. So it's better controlled than, say, just opening up a spreadsheet or Google doc or something and, you know, writing information in that. But also there was a layer of what he called like a to do list and a communication platform, because if you've ever done due diligence before, you probably know this. There are follow on questions, there's things that need to be explained and he wanted to capture that entire process within deal room. Obviously it's now it's grown to do much more of the process and it's a successful company. We also talked about his career nation of M a SCIENCECOM, which I thought was really interesting and he put this really well. He said I realized, and I probably should do this earlier, but I realized as a startup founder, you really need to build within your company a media business. I thought that was a really profound way of putting this idea of you need content marketing, no matter what your startup is about. I'll let keisson explain to you know why I decide to do that, how that helped the business really finally grow, what that looks like for them in terms of the kind of content they produce, and you can always go to m a sciencecom to check it out. As well, but yes, I really like that way of talking about content marketing it. It's true because even with my own company, in box done, we really do have like a small media arm which I run, I'm the manager of it within the company, like we do in box management, email management for our clients, but there's this other part of the business where we're helping to spread the word by, for example, you know, sponsoring this podcast I mentioned in box done. So it's part...

...of the content here. We have a copywriting team producing articles, we have social media sharing content, we're creating youtube video. So it is like a media arm within the startup and I've noticed as I've been angel investing and getting more background information about the companies I invest in, all of them are almost all of them start doing content marketing, building their own media arm within their business as a way to grow and also stable lies growth control it, because other methods are very hit and miss. Paper Click advertising can kind of maybe works one day, stops working next month and you've got sort of sponsoring an event and it might be great with the event happens within it's over. So it can be a real roller coaster where with content you start to you know, be a part of the conversation online, you start showing up in search results and that's more consistent and dependable once you've built up all that content. And speaking of inbox done so, today's episode is brought to you by Inbox Donecom, which is the email management and virtual executive assistant company that I co founded with my partner, Claire. We started that business for years ago now and have been servicing all kinds of different clients in different industries, like car sales, real estate, dentist doctors, restaurant owners, online coaches, venture capitalists, Angel Investors, anyone who's dealing with too much email, having trouble managing their calendar and needs a specialist who's just fantastic at written communication to step in and learn how to take over something as important and vital as your email. That's what we do, and in fact we assign you to dedicated executive virtual assistants who are specially trained and hired to take over email, re applying to messages, managing email building processes, documentation, so sops. All of that we do, plus the typical virtual executive assistant tasks that you might be thinking about, data entry, basic research, booking, travel. We do that as well, but we really specialize on email and we're one of the only executive assistant companies that provide two people as a standard. So you have redundancy so in case someone needs a holiday, maybe they're unwell, they have to take a month off, you're not suddenly left with this big gap in service. So we have that continuity of service with two staff members, and also that's two people who learn how to take over your business and your email and you don't have to deal with that issue of turnover in the training process all over again. So that's really important to us and that's why we do it. If you need help with your email or you need an executive virtual assistant, head to in box. Donecom all right, now let's dive into the interview with Keisson Patl. Hello, Kissan, thank you for joining me today. My pleasure. So I had to hit record straight away because I try to do this kind of pre interview questions and I feel like I need to record everything you're saying for the listeners because I don't know a lot about the space you've been operating in for a long time, the mergers and acquisition space, so I can look at your linkedin and say you are the CEO and founder of m a science and also deal room, which is like assass in the MNA space. So definitely want to talk about those two things, but maybe as an overview. You know, what has been your life for a? What do you you famous for? Yeah, happy to kick that off. I've started with their career in m advisory, working mainly with private entities by sides, l side with the focus and hospitality, a lot of hotel chains, and then also find a small financial situations was the other area of focus on mine and pretty typical founder story. We work in the industry long enough, you're familiar with the pain points and challenges and you start seeing emerging trends in the tech sector and start getting ideas, which I noticed software engineers would use these really cool project management tools to manage developing software and thought why not for M and a, and that led to starting a company called deal room in two thousand and twelve. That was project management for M and...

A and that that's evolved into a full on life cycle management product, and we'll get a little bit into that. Then I was really fortunate again where about little over five years ago, a friend and marketing was like Hey, man, you should do a podcast and I was like, what the Hell's a podcast? And he's like, don't worry about it, because next big thing. Just got to do one. And back then there's only for five podcast covering MNA. Today there's over fifty and we've done really well. They had a lot of fun hosting of the podcast we have and we repurpose a lot of that content and today have published over three hundred fifty piece of the content blog post ebooks. Just published our second book, working on a third one, and that evolved during covid into doing virtual events where we run these summits about three to four times a year and they're fun. We then started an online school for Ma. So we've sort of combined not of the technology component but also the the education and best practice, which is probably the underpinning problem in our industry is that it lacks standardization around those best practices. If you look at all these companies, they have their own way of thinking and approaching MNA. So with the the idea of the platform or using a podcast of the platform was can we do a series of quantitative interviews and identify where are the trends patterns and the proven techniques that we can find in the industry and start documenting it make it into resources the other practitioners can leverage. Okay, so I definitely need to demistify some of this and, like we talked about off air, it's helpful that I've not spent really much time in the MA world. I can think really to what is my exposure and probably a lot of the listeners exposure. As you see, you know a news piece like I'm thinking right now. The most recent one was there's like the rail company. I can real think it's the Kansas City rail is something is being acquired by one of the Canadian rail companies and you know it' A it's an acquisition of one big train company of another train company and as a normal person you hear that you think, okay, it's they're going to combine forces and become one big company. One is probably bigger than the other and they're just going to have a larger customer base service more of the country, and that to me I understand sort of the purpose, but I feel like behind the scenes there's so much more going on. Before you answer that question, though, I actually would like to step back in time, because as far as I know, and maybe this was or was not the case for you, I don't remember any kid when, you know, mom and dad asked him, what do you want to do when you grow up, and they say I want to be an ma, I want to be in merges, in acquisition. So how did you even get exposed? Like, what was the what did you do growing up initially? You know, I by Dad would say otherwise. He said, I remember when you're ten years old and you would always draw these pictures of cars and you make it into a little book and here's these cars like lasers and rocket boosters, and you'd always put prices in the millions and billions, and so I don't know. I was always drawn in by big numbers and I think running a practice was great. When you run a boutique practice, you run into that glass ceiling where. What does I mean, though, when you say running a practice? What does that actually mean? Advising your advising organizations on their Mana activity or whether they're buying or selling. It's a fun business. The challenge I had with it was the two part. One is you get a chance that the hundred million dollar transaction and you wouldn't get it. Always go to a brand name firm. And then the other thing was your living deal by deal, like you really live deal bydeal. That first year we had the recession back in no six hundred and seven. Took a big hit. That was tough. That was nerve racking. And Your Hey, do I stay on path and hope that it gets better next year? To a pivot and try something else and different? And that's what ultimately, what I did to start to shifting towards the technology space. Is this transatlantic investments and advisory? Is that your initial...

Lemin a firm? That was the first practice I ran for almost ten years. Okay, so let me ask the basic questions around that, which be that time your life as well. So the purpose of your company at the time? There would be one company thinking about acquiring another and essentially they need consultation on the nuts and bolts of how to do that. The financing, the combination of staff leadership. Is that, and then you come in with the expertise to advise them on how to structure that, how to get financing. Is that kind of roughly speaking? It yeah, if you look at a typical private company, when you look at the fundraising part of it. When you look at that, when they if they sell and if they acquire other businesses, they're pretty infrequent events that happen. They don't really develop this expertise in those areas. They're really focused on the core business that they have. As an advisor you're able to assist and bring this experience and expertise in those areas. I'd say most of them, and a is focused on cell side. Sell sides tends to be the more lucrative part. They get the traditional investment banking model up to kind of take a company, run auction process, get the highest price for it and sell the business. I personally love doing the byside work. I had so much fun out going out hunting for deals that probably really thrived off of. But in the money's in the cell side. Why is that? Just because you're taking a cut of the final sale price of the business. It is. You get a cut of the business. If you have something for sale, it's almost like inedably it's going to sell. At some point in time. Somebody's going to buy it. It may take a month, that may take a year, somebody will eventually buy it and you'll get your fees on it. On the by side, you could you need to be careful about who you're working with. You could be working with a buyer that may seem like a serious buyer, but they may never buy anything. They may keep pass pass past and a lot of frustration. And if you do get a retainer on the buy side it's usually not much either way. I'm buy yourself side, but on the cell side you'll typically get your d deal done. so forgive me for being really basic here, but the day you decided to launch Trans Atlantic investments and advisory, how does that even happen? Like, do you have deals in the pipeline because you know certain people who want to sell their company? Like, what is the trigger point? And then, like, why do you even believe you know you can enter, because I feel like, like you said before, there's a lot of big fish in MNA and like, why choose someone who's just come along and saying I could sell your company versus go to a big, established player? And is that more to do with the size of the company to like small companies don't qualify for the bigger players. They need to look for more boutique firms. I'm kind of guessing here, but is that? Is that right? Yeah, absolutely, I can't from a unique spot. I didn't follow a traditional path where you often would get into investment banking, start as an analyst and work your way up the ranks. I came from a real estate background were essentially failed as selling houses and found my way into this tiny little Emma advisory shop that somehow figured out how to generate a lot of inbound interest and they had primarily various Indians that were responding to these these post that they put online and they hired me, as this young Indian kid, to go deal with these Indian prospects and go sell them some small businesses, and I did. I started doing it and had try. I had fun because I liked I liked pmls, I like the numbers, I like building a story around. Here's an opportunity, here's how we can reduce expensive here I can grow revenues, and did well doing it. But realize the firm itself had some faults where they didn't have a clear strategy in there where they're trying to build their expertise in, and that's where I decided, a year after into it, to start a practice with the focus in specific verticals and that led to starting our own firm and it's tough. It's...

...definitely hard to get out there and start something new. So never forget it. I can imagine, I think the the other part too, when you think about the the size of the firm and how we got the traction. There's a little bit of understanding the model from experience at a firm, but ultimately came down a great I think just being really young, I was in my early S, not being afraid to lose anything, knock on doors and show people how willing I was to take chance, to put in the best effort. I can. Be extremely responsive. It worked. It'd get caught, folks to say, all right, I'll give you, give you a shot here, and ended up building off of it. Made some success. Happen. Can you share, like your first ever deal, like what? Who? What was the company left? You're allowed to disclose that and hat what what did you I know it's you know, so long ago and I'm friends with the guy now. So you know. I started this practice downtown Chicago and I remember renting this office and the laylord even know what to do with me because there the the representative because I'm asking for a month, the month lease. Then I had like I just want to try this out, see what happens, and end up talking the owner of the property, worked out a deal, got this little off is going and ran out of capital. I thought Hey, I had ten grand, was enough working capital. I was fortunate of my Dad Lend me k just to keep things going and I thought I was, I was done, because he's like that's all, I'm not going to lend you any more money. I don't really believe what you're doing here. I got so lucky that I came across three hundred and sixty three asset sale of a company called more oil out of Indiana and they had a small portfolio of little gas stations, five or six of them, that they were liquidating through a bank process and I got to represent these assets and go through and sell them, and the first one I remember selling was a time any little and I remember this deal was such a good deal that I kept running or China. Ask family members. A lot of the family members are in these different type of retail businesses and nobody wanted to go out there and nobody like that's too far, too far away from Chicago and ended up finding this guy online who that's all he did. He buy a business, turn it around and flip it, sell it, go travel somewhere else, do the same thing, and that's ended up selling it to him. For remember the business that we had a net two hundred and ten thousand. I sold Tim for two hundred forty thousand and then three months later I sold the same business again for five hundred fifty thousand. So it was I mean, I'm watching this guy make about three hundred thousand dollars and three months and I you know, we got decent fees to start building out the the practice and pick things up from there. But did you mind sharing what the fee is for like a deal like that? Is it enough for survive a year or a month? You know, the small deals, and we talked little about the size fit with firms. These small deals that it really varies. You can do up to ten percent on them. Yeah, I gave you like two hundred forty. I charge thirtyzero. I sold again for fifty and Capt K. So those small deals you can get up to ten percent and I think when you get over a million it starts tapering down. They'll use these different models, like the layman formula or whatever you negotiate it for. Savvy Advisor. I think, though, when you do look at the size of deals, there is a bit of a nature or fit to it. You don't want to be you don't want to be a midsize company going to Goldman Sachs because you're just not going to get the tension that you would with a midlevel bank. That's so there is some some truth to right sizing when you are working with these different be it like a boutique I'm an a shop or an investment bank. I think that that's important to consider. I think a lot of people will get overly drawn in the names, but you start going to the city, the the JPM's and they may bank you because a lot of them are broadening up and creating a middle market focus. But I would really pay attention the team you're working with and make sure that's an area...

...that's they're going to prioritize for them and it's not something that's left up to the side and who knows what happens. Do you mind just closing the loop, because this really helps explain the full process. So if you're getting ten percent to sell this small gas station, you know, out in a smaller area, and then sell it again when the the the new owner wants to sell it. What do you actually do for that ten percent? Like, what is the you bring to the table? That? Yeah, good thing. Is Marketing. One part. I think a lot of people don't realize. When you go sell your business, there's a ton of prep involved and especially if you're going out to market, you may be dealing with two types unsophisticated and sophisticated buyers. Sophisticated buyers are ones that maybe the right buyers, that they're the ones that are going to pay the best price, and you need to be really prepared because they're going to do a very formal diligence process and they're going to have expectations to see things. They want to see clean books, they want to really be able to have clear answers on the things that they look for when they identify risk in their deals. And the better you clean your house and have it ready to go but smoother and better the process going to go. Otherwise, you're going to keep opening up these little red flags that were going to require clarification. It's going to slow down your process and just make it frustrating and more headaches than you need. So really important to have somebody that can help you prepare your business for that process and then the going through the marketing phase. If you have somebody that's worked in the industry for selling hotels, and that was one I worked in, and understand who are the key players, given the size of the deal, I know I can make a quick list of here's my top ten that would go to and then I'll blow that out and maybe find additional forty two, make it fifty and say, okay, I'm going to run a very comprehensive process. These are the people I would go out to and with those kind of assets to you can be a little more public and maybe run a marketing process that that's pretty broad, and then you'll spend the time to filter out those potential buyers and qualify them. And then once you go through that process and come to some terms and have an loi sign, then a formal diligence process happens, or conformatory diligence, and that that gets pretty tensive. And when you think about the visors roll, there's one helping to filter the buyers, helping the client understand the differences between the buyer and may not just strictly be go with the highest price. And No, nowadays especially, sellers are very invested with the organization they built and they want to see it continue and they want to see the team be in a good place that they want to make sure that things will be aligned for them as well, and that might not be the highest price. You may have a company with that the cultures aligned better and there there's going to be a better future, or they're planning to preserve the product or the other maybe, Hey, we're going to just destroy this and get rid of a confetitor. There's different views and understanding what that post close with their strategies of the buyer is an important factor and that's something with an advisor can help you with some of the considerations. And then the diligence, I think is really important because that process is so intensive and if you can imagine getting hundreds of questions and well, a lot of follow up questions. So you get a bunch of request for documentation which, if you did your housekeeping it'll won't be as bad as it could be, and then the you'll get additional follow up questions like, Hey, maybe have this lawsuit five years ago, like we want to know there's no little things are and creep back from that. Let's have some clarification questions. That advisor will help with that, because otherwise that diligence process ends up becoming so distracting for your management team that it could potentially affect the performance of the business while you're transacting, which should be a bad thing. You don't want to be doing a deal and all of a sudden you Mr quarterly goals or expectations and then they raises more concerns that that buyer. Helping to minimize a distraction so the management...

...team can stay focused on operating the business is another key component. At a price, seller provides or advisor provides his value. Okay, that's interesting. You're making me think back a previous guest on my show, Baird Hall. He sold a company called wave and he talked about how they made the mistake coming his cofounders of basically is telling it themselves and realizing, Oh my God, there's just so many documents they had to get created and signed, you know, the legal processing, and they were like, we should have used a broker. So he used that term like a broker to broker the or selling agent, and it's funny like him, in a it sounds more like this Wall Street term that you hear about, you know, in online in finance papers and websites and so on, where I grew up in this world of, you know, you sell a website, is not selling a business. It's simpler transactions. So I like that they're really the same thing ultimately, just a bigger scales. I'd love to talk about that in terms of the almost ten years you were running your own practice. Maybe two questions total deal volume and is there like you remember your biggest deal and what that was like? We had a lot of missed on the bigger deals. I feel like I had a handful of the hundred million plus opportunities and really missed them. All the bigger deals that we did were actually finance projects that we were refinancing, hotel assets and the fifty sixty million dollar range. Those are probably the bigger ones. I think at a good point the terminology to when you hear broker, I think of business brokers as the mom and pop shops. If you think of where I started with those little convenience stores, gas station type of deals. And then when you start moving past ten million, now you follow this M and advisory category, which is typically still unlicensed. Your maybe you got registered. You know in Illinois you register with the state and there's something there, but until you get to a level as an investment bank, you're registered within run. So I would say those might be the the buckets to distinguish that. Hey, if it's a really small transaction, there's a whole pool of business brokers out there. But then you move into the MNA visory, when you start getting to this this mid market, you know that ten two hundred million. Above two hundred million your you're probably working with a license investment bank. Okay, that's really interesting, useful. All right. So that example of like your biggest deal, which is more of a refinance. Are you just going to private equity where company is buying a part of the company to help them finance? Like, what is a refinance actually look like? We're doing it through large banks. We're credits to weeee was a big bank I would work with to run those kind of deals with, and then local banks as well. So that, yeah, that was an interesting that I think I found out was working with the hotel assets. They fall kind of hybread between business and real estate asset. So it's there's pretty lucrative just going through and refinancing them, picking up like half a point just for putting those deals together. And then they if you were working with real estate developers, then you can do a lot of things. I think we did a hotel deal over, did that acquisition for about one thousand Sev hundred eighteen million. That you pull construction loans out with that sort of package, the finance with it as well. So yeah, and then turn around and sell it here later. Yeah, because that starts the relationship right. You help them with the financing and then when it's time to sell, they come come back to you as well, or time to buy. Okay, I love to maybe move your story forward, key son. So you, like you said, it was a bit of a kind of business model where it's you're always looking for a deal, so it maybe doesn't feel super comfortable in terms of stability and like in then you mentioned that was like the GFC, which really impacted things for you. What led you to transitioning, and, and correct me if I'm wrong here, did you literally quit or leave or sell your own firm and start something completely new, or did you kind of start it in parallel, like a side Hustle Sass while you're still running your own firm? It was a winded it down slowly and during the recession where...

I had as I think our peak we had about five people, so the really small firm. We did a good job, though people always thought were much bigger firm than we actually were. Just did we're very efficient, handle the good volume of transactions and then just want wanted, winded it down, whined on the office and basically operate as a sole practitioner during the recession because it really wasn't deals going on. I'm probably gotten involved with a few liquidations that were result of the recession and I started dabbling around to the tech at the same time started getting involved with a marked tech startup that then ultimately pan out, but it led me to understand this whole ecosystem of the software space and the tools that these engineers used. Then started the company deal room in two thousand and twelve, but that was tough. That was a lot of like a lot of lessons learned the hard way. I think a lot of people get start up ideas. You are you know this space as well, and I you probably same with me. Get the phone call, here's someone's friend that's wants to do a start up, and I think I got one this weekend actually, and you're trying to be as nice as possible tell them how brutally hard it actually is and that and think of a restaurant. Like restaurant, you know, you got to know how to make a great product and he had to have a lot of certain things that go right, where you got to have a good location, you Gott have a good structure, property, good ambience, great menu, structured, good cooks, things to make a good meal as the Gout, like ten things that really got to go right. But then thing is that with with that kind of business, is really visible, like you can see pretty clear what's going on. What's going on tech. It's the same in terms of having things go right. You got to pay attention to these pieces, but a lot of them you can't really see. So you're very much dependent on if you're not a technical founder and you're relying on developers to right, you know, a good code and functioning code and things like that. So it's really different dynamic and there's a lot more pieces involved with it. I don't know. It's and that's the thing. I think ultimately you got to realize there's a competency of building a great product at the end of the day that you need to make your goal. You can make crappy software and nobody's going to buy it, or you can make great software. Do you understand that competency it takes to actually build great software? That's the one thing I didn't realize. I sort of assumed like a consulting practice, you can kind of get it going and iterate on it and figure out these pieces as you go. Software is a little different, it says you. Well, there was a lot of hard lessons learned that. I think looking back at it, it's it seems obvious now, but that was definitely something struggles in the beginning. Let me take us through it. So I'd love to know. You have this idea you're winding down your actual boutique firm. Deal flows not so good. GFC's happening. But then you're also thinking, I now have spent a decade in this space. I see the need for a software solution to something that goes on within Ma. I need to go hire a developer to the build an MV MVP. Is that kind of your thinking at the time? Yes, you have an idea, you want to hire developers. I think there's a couple things. One you start getting obsessed with wanting to build things right the first time, and the other thing the feature creep. You have this idea and youth as thinking about like all these possible things that your user would possibly want. The end up with his giant outline of functionality. That so it's you sort of naturally go the opposite of an MVP and building a prototype to just to validate your business was, I think one is sorry, I just gonna that's what with an example, what was your initial idea like? What was there your I had a vision for end to end management of Ma. That was, and is that mean? Ended up starting with well, if you look at a deal, you go through the phases of and I got to flip...

...it around because back then we're very focused on cell side to they were very focused on by side. So then it's like hey, you got to go through the steps to prepare company, take it out to market, find potential buyers for it, manage a diligence process and then give them a handoff of all that information so they can run with it and go through their integration process. That was the early thinking in what we wanted to build. And there's just a lot. There's a lot. There's a whole marketplace model to connect buyers and sellers. That's where we thought, hey, let's start off with the beginning part and start building the environment to connect buyers and sellers. But I think the thing is you don't realize. The thing we didn't realize was there are a lot of different problems that we're trying to solve all at once and you need to solve one thing at a time and solve it really, really well and validate you solve it well, then figure out how you can scale that solution out to others. Then look at solving the next problem. And we when we started to there's a lot of assumptions that we had from our prior experience that we did these smaller transactions that we thought would apply well to the middle market that was a larger size transactions. That weren't true. There were assumptions that were dead wrong and we paid for it and we started the launches product, started marketing it as a marketplace, acquired about thirteen hundred different users and two hundred deals listed and realize we'd built a sophisticated dumpster for deals because they were all just stuff that nobody in the right mind would invest in. Are you talking kind of like a flip? I don't know if you know flip on the online market place for websites. It was sort of like like that. Yeah, but we did have a digital focus. It was all kinds of businesses. I think would where that's was the realization that we need to go back to the drawing board. I was fortunate enough to have a good friend to walk me through and elaborate a think of the lean start up model, like really focus on the problem you're solving, go through a series of these customer development interviews, validate the problem you're solving, then validate the solution and developing. And we did that. We just took a step back started doing I think we did our goals do about forty of these interviews to real the understand different coherts of potential customers and what their pain points are and validate them. There's both like the science and art to it, because a lot of people tell you what you want to hear and can you design your caution you you want to hear what you want to hear too. So can you design your questions to be as unbiased as possible and be very objective when you conduct that that type of interview? Then we did these interviews and realize that it's not finding the opportunities that people are problem with. Is the management side. We really started focusing on management, modeled out solutions. I know people who do wire frames, but I don't feel like the general public doesn't understand why your frames really well. So I always encourage go on up work or whatever platform and either find somebody oversee you to find a student, have them do some basic mockups so you can present it and do those same kind of interviews on the solution. Validate the solution. What I later learned is why you're validating the solution, you should also validate your go to market. Start understanding where are these channel how are they going to buy your product and what's that going to look like? Because again, we fell back on assumptions and went to market the same way our competitors did, which is a terrible thing to do. That was not a good idea at all, they have a totally different product, different business model that justified them doing the wait solding, selling the way they did with field wraps and unlimited expense cards and things of that's or could you? Can you make that tangible? So when you took a step back, you started doing both problem research and go to market research. What did you then identify as the problem and how did you go to market with that? That first version that I feel like you're getting to a point where you actually got something that got some traction. Yeah, the first big thing we really lasered in on was the diligence process that...

...when buyers and sellers go back and forth. A buyer has a lot of documents they need to review and they have a lot of follow up clarification questions that come after and the current state the customers were, the customers in this case, were using excel trackers, US an excel sheet and build a tracker to manage all this request for information and questions, and it got tedious quickly because you're bashing everything it could this could be hundreds, over a thousand items, depending the deal size. Then you have follow up questions that go on the same tracker. And now you're having a discussion on an excel sheet that's not very clean at all. Found it very to be a problematic pain point for these customers. That's where we really focused on for a solution. Of the idea was, hey, we see these project management tools of software engineers use. Why don't we do something like that? Why don't we take this data security platform, the virtual data room that was commonly used in the industry to exchange the documents, and the difference between data room and your typical dropbox some additional security features. They'll have automated water marking, so your documents can be water marked. If somebody sends it out to the wrong person, you know who leaked the document out. It'll have their log in time, they access to it and everything. They'll also you can put very, very granular permissions in the data room environment. So it maybe I want to lock everything down so it's view only, but there's a sex sale model that I'm going to give you access to download and tinker with offline. So we very granular permissions and then audit trails, very detailed audit trail and everything that's been touched in the whole data room. So the idea of then that was standard in the industry. People always use these data rooms. Why don't we just put the to do list on top of the data room to manage all that back and forth, and now you can do it in a real time environment, just like the project management tools, and essentially bring workflow to the industry. And that that was the first, first thing we did. But it was still tough. I think with the nature of the industry in the deals that we're doing, people don't trust the new, new kids on the block with a solution. They're like, Hey, we're doing on a million dollar deal here. Why should we use his brand new product nobody's ever heard of? What will our client think? I think bankers tend to be conservative. It was really, really tough. Lot of brute force, knocking on doors, hitting people on em on Linkedin, just constantly knock, knock, knock. I was fortunate I had a bank Felix. Felix down into from Lm core group just gave me a shot. Said Hey, I got a client. They're going to go on a Toronto Exchange IPO work. Why don't you you know, let me get you this deal, help you get going. I did, and then from there picked up. We started working with all state and some other company, kneames, and things started picking up. I think they're that part was it was. It was tough too, because when we still, once you start getting the live deals, then you realize that hey, you built this product but it's not really built for scale. So that's the thing. You know, we're going through all these iterations with the prototype mindset, but now we had to shift to how do we rebuild a product for scale? What was it? A venture backed company? Like was did you get funding for the deal room, or was it bootstrapped? bootstrapped? Okay, so you're pouring in all your your previous profit from your bootie gaygency into the hope of assass software program taking off. Basically, that that sort of hardcore on Pinter mentality. It was hard. It was all the really tough doing it that way. I think at the time we originally looked at raising some capital, but Chicago was in the super it's not like a bay area where people take bets and take chances on you. They want to see a significant amount of traction. So the the only term sheet we got offered was terrible or like well, I might as well just keep investing more money into it. Take us for with the the deal room story. Just it's ten years later. You're still like running the company. I believe you if I'm CEO and founder on going to Linkedin, still up and running. So...

...what was the like process of scaling it? And it sounds like the initial door knocking led to your first client, which means you've got social proof to help get the second client. And I can imagine maybe word of mouth starts to kick in and that starts spreading the word too. But like, at what point did you feel okay, we're okay now, this is a functioning, profitable business. Yeah, I feel like everything you think would be a driver to drive it forward, like what you mentioned, didn't happen. Like we're a mouth. Wasn't the thing and they and now it happens when you hit a significant scale. But I wouldn't bet on that. I think we thought that there was going to be some inherent virality with the product because when you host a project room, you'll end up inviting a hundred plus users into the environment. We assume that, hey, if these users come in, then they're in turn going to get a good experience and want to use the tool for one of their other projects. They happens, but it didn't happen like the way we thought it would. That wasn't a natural growth through that channel we were one big difference is we realize the banks weren't early doctors. there. We're spending all this time energy trying to sell them, but the corporates were actually our early adoptors. They were much easier to sell to. They were incentive eyes to create value and improve what they were doing drive efficiency, where banks often weren't. There's a big disconnect between the leadership and the folks actually used our product and the folks that use our product. They didn't care about improving the process. They were there and for a short ride. They know at the end of the year they're going to quit and go work on the by side. So that way they don't care. They're just going to do with the way they do and get it done to get out. And Then, plus, the competitors were buying them all kinds of treats. They're taking them out, buying the ball game tickets and all these perks. So you're competing with that. Not then the day that that's what one the hearts of these junior bankers. When we work at the corporates. They're sophisticated. They are all about creating value and demonstrating that to the seniors, that that's what they're doing and and framing themselves to get promoted and align yourself with that. That's a good thing. So, you know, we kept going along pretty reasonable pace. I think one other big challenge you came across was your distribution model. I feel like you go through this whole heartache and struggles of building a product, getting market fit, then realizing like you need to rebuild everything, and at that time we to rebuild our tech team to build for scale. That's how okay now we're. Now we just got to sell the thing and realize that that's actually harder than building the product and all that perspiration you just went through. You got to do double down on it and we started hiring sales reps. we didn't have a marketing function. They struggled. Ended up only one of them survived. She's heading our client success team now, Julia, but we ended up making some fault start there. That was expensive. Then we shifted focus built the marketing function, which I think, going back, I would definitely do that in fact, Yar Oh, if I were to start a tech company today, I would make clearly part of the strategy is to build a media company within the Tech Company, because that's what's created. Are All our tail went today is when we started podcasting, expanding, creating all these series of contents, collaborating with subject matter experts, really building it. That's a really helped a lot. But so we build a marketing function. We've been doing that the last four years. That's been a huge difference. We got tons of inbound leads. Sales Reps love and bound leads, and then when they reach out, the people have heard of us. More often than not we've got tons of collateral, tons of resources, events to invite them to all these things that marketing supports and those efforts are everything's becoming more digital, so the interactions you get are tend to be more through the marketing channels first, then the sales channel. I love the way you put that. Build a media company within your startup. I call it content marketing. I come from a plugging and a podcasting background,...

...so it's natural for me to see content and media as the way to reach people, especially at low costs. And I say low cost as a cost to create the content, but then ideally it sits out there and keeps bringing in value. And even my own company right now. I run an email management executive assistant company called box done, and our main marketing channel is yeah, it's a kind of like an inhouse media company. We've got copywriters. I'm somewhat doing it right now being on podcasts. I even talk about my company guys, a sponsor for this show. So it's all kind of interrelated. Take me back to the decision you made. So you said it was about four years ago you realized you needed to start producing support, education and content. How did you start that? We just need a marketing we didn't have marketing and like we didn't marketing. I did that the a lot of the fabled mistakes. I hired the hot chat CMO with the apple more roll of background and was the failed higher than I ended up bringing somebody midlevel, about five years of experience coming out of an agency, was able to participate as an individual contributor, started creating social media. I just kind of sap back like okay, and see what that does, and then she started creating a blog and getting that going, and then started building out some contract riders and now she runs a function, whole function. We got more than ten people and marketing alone for a company that's just passing thirty headcount. Nice. Okay, so did you notice an impact? I know content, social and particular is not known for an instant results added. It sort of play out like your one was not so good or it. You know that. It was interesting because there's very much an SEO first approach, which is in common and and that was partly because of the the budget and we don't have venture money, where you typically would spend for a lot of pay DADS initially to try to validate and prove your model quick as you can and then you build out that Seo once you have that dialed in. And we just played long on SEO, which, looking back at it was probably a really good decision because now we do extremely well. They're leads. Boy, back then we didn't. We'd have a thousand business to the website a month and maybe who got one lead a month. Now I we get a lot. I think we capture like nine thousand context just this last quarter. Yeah, and then I don't we get a lot of we had lot of trials coming in demo requests well into the hundreds. So yeah, there is a lot, a lot to be said of the value that's created with the marketing function. So what are you doing with this content? Are you teaching people the INS and outs of m a? Yeah, it's all educational. If we step back, when we think about our journey working with banks, starting work with the corporates and spending the time with that same model of solution selling. I. Let me understand your pain points. Let me introduce the solution, but in underpin it with a good business case on why the solution is going to create value. We quickly realized all these comple it wasn't the same story we can bring with to one another. They all had a unique way of looking at MNA and approaching Ma and the bigger problem industry was industry itself. It operated in a silo and lacked standardization and best practices, and that was part of the idea with doing a podcast was, can we use it as a platform to enable practitioners to share their lessons learned and allow us to identify what are some of these proven techniques that we can then capture, document and share with the industry, and that that's what it's able to really help us. So I think podcasting, in these tools out there is good, but if you can build it with a mission and that that was our goal, was to enable practitioners that share lest lessons learned. But now it's really evolved to providing the industry with these educational resources that's based off of evidence. Nice. So you use a bit of research and Dota and it sounds like you're slicing it up for the different sort of stories in the head of your potential clients as well. So, like niche within Niche Marketing, is the best place to...

...check all that out is just go to deal room dot co and look at your content. Or is it? So we're out, or deal ROM DOTNET? There's actually a deal room dot co which we're good we're good friends with them. They are European based company that does data for startups and they I mean they probably grown beyond that, but there Amsterdam based company where our main product line is building dotnet. Or am doing all this crunch based resource on your European counterpart ends? Yeah, you're are. It happens all the time. But we AMMA SCIENCECOM SO MA science. That's becoming our umbrella brand. It's interesting. I wish we tied it together earlier. So now we operate both brands. But if you look at m a Sciencecom you'll see we have several product lines all within that that line, and then the podcast obviously drives a good amount of traffic to it. Both of them have tons of educate. Yeah, and maybe you can help help goose the connect the dots here too. So how would this work? I'm a founder of a company, I'm thinking of selling it. I need, like I Google Diligence Process for selling my ten million dollar company. You're one of your m a science articles comes up. I learned about what information I need and then I also learn about deal room as a platform to manage that diligence workflow. Is that kind of right? If I just describe a typical maybe discovery process, I would say so. On the cell side it's pretty it is straightforward. There are a lot of companies that are represented, so the revisors that would tend to engage with us and saying hey, I got a client I'm working with to sell their business and then would activate our service and help manage it. A lot of our contents focused because we do have a focus today with corporate MA and corporates will sell businesses, but more often than not they're acquiring businesses. When you acquire a business there's the whole process of going through sourcing deals that aligned with your strategy, doing the diligence from the byside, but the integration part is really complex if you think about the big problem underpinning m the biggest problem with MNA today is the process itself, that we're still driven off of this twenty year old finance focused m a approach and it doesn't work it. You end up with a bunch of pissed off people that quit and take away a bunch of value at the end of the deal. And you've seen it before. You see an acquisition go bad. Change was too erupt and it just dismantled the business created too much disruption. When we look at that process, we acquire a business, the integration process is the largest magnitude of change management or an organization could possibly go through. You're appeeling back organization in the years and years it's created that our process processes layer by layer and reattaching it to another organization. So trying to do that without pissing people off is extremely difficult, and that that's where today we talk a lot about building a people focused m a process and really keeping them engage, keeping the leadership from that target company in the loop about what the strategy is for the deal. What does this integration go to look like? In fact, we doing all this diligence on you. How about you do some diligence on us and understand what our organization looks like, how you're going to fit in and be integrated into this organization and what that's going to look like and be part of that journey so we can really work together on this and be aligned around the golds and what the outcomes are going to be, versus keeping you in the dark and your hit up, hit with these surprises and changes and getting the frustration, the the fud factor and ultimately leaving to disband the company. So, yeah, there's a long way to go, but that's the the big thing we're really really focused on is improving the integration process so there's a better people experience. Though overall transaction is better, smoother, more efficient, people are happier, value gets realized a lot faster. Okay, so I'm curious now,...

Keiss, on the day in the life. You would have previously been this deal maker Guy Right running around looking for the buyer or the seller and doing all that diligence and relationship building, and then you became this assass start out founder. Completely different role really. I mean, even if it is in the topic that you you know about, you were trying to digitize a work for a plusses that you used to do, probably very manually, and today it sounds like you're almost in charge of ASSASS company, but you're also in charge of a media company. What is it day in the life like? What do you work on personally for you know, the whole organization? That's a good question. You know, the thing that I really, really love about being Sass I never get bored, I think, with it, with them and a you can use tend to stay focused in certain verticals and go deep in there, and I loved meeting people the conversations. But when you're building a company in the learning never ends. You start off with a big focus on the technology, keeping up with it, building a team around it, than the marketing function understate marketing never ends. There's so many things you can do, but it's fun. You can get very creative in that that part of the business. Now we're very much focused on building out the sales function and creating understanding. Hey, the bigger companies that we work with, the bigger problems they have, which is a better opportunity for us to be able to solve big problems for large organizations that the outcome ends up being better revenues from that. So now we're starting to build an enterprise sales team. So I think that's the the big thing is the learning never ends. It sounds like you are doing a lot of high wearing. I use that your day to day is hiring and team team management, or I was going to say that in terms of the daytoday it bounces around. They're still I've doing a lot of podcasts for our stuff, working to support the sales team when they need help. I think the hiring is a big one and it does fluctuate. We sort of go through cycles like will tend not to hire towards the end of the year and early the year because it's either slower than very competitive in the beginning of the year. So there's a little bit cycles that we try to build around. In terms of hiring, but then obviously there's needs that come up and you got to respond to it. That does take a lot of time. I think the one thing that I struggle with to spend as much time as I should is the client value delivery. That's probably today's big focus. Is Pushing and saying, Hey, we've acquired a number of customers, but if I go back, and especially the ones have been with us for a number of years, you realize that you they've been using you for this one or two use case for all these years, but now you've expanded to manage ten, fifteen different use cases. So there's so much opportunity to go back and help them, whether or not it's directly tied to selling another product and get getting more revenue, but just even the way they could engage with your existing product and get more value out of it. It'll help keep their LTV or keep their stop them from churn description extending. Yeah, I reduce the churn exactly. Okay, so I think that's the the big thing. It's you know what was I know it's roughly like thirty percent. You should be spending your time, at least at the minimum, with the customers, because the opportunities there. The opportunities there to understand I can prove your product, how you can actually go to market better, how you can expand on those accounts. But, more importantly, at the end of the day, your core competency as an organization is your ability to create value and if you can expand on that capability, the stronger organization you'll be, the more valuable value you'll be able to generate for your clients and be able to create that capability across your organization. That's what you ultimately want to do. If you're constantly on the front end of the deal trying to close deals, you don't really develop that competency that you would when you're actually focused on the value delivery part. So I would say that's the big takeaway of this year is to really really focus on value delivery and get good at so it's...

...like that client ongoing nurturing and making sure they take advantage of what they're buying from you. It sounds like you're doing a lot of different things, like being a the media. I'm on the podcast talking guy. Then you're helping with the hiring. I've no doubt you're. You making key decisions on who to bring into the team. And then it sounds like you're working with established clients to make sure they see and extract the value from you, know, what they're buying from you. So that does it quite different. Very interconnected roles, but very holistic to it gives you good sense of the front end, the middle and the back end of your company any so that's interesting, Keysni. Just to kind of wrap it up, where are we going with this business? It's kind of funny to talk to a merger and acquisition guy and not talk about one day selling your own company. Is that sort of something you thought about all the other side of the fence, buying other companies to bring into your own organization to expand that way? Yeah, there, I mean all those are ideas that are there that become more and more interesting to actually pursue. I think we're in a unique spot because today we're still we don't have any outside shareholders, so we're still tightly held company private, and I think there's a unique opportunity because I leverage it in terms of hey, this gives us much greater focus on the customer. We don't weigh our decision, we don't have a board and shareholders that influence our decisions. It's focused on the customer and I'm interested in seeing how our structure can evolve to build the equity model to incent of eyes the team in the company and be able to continue growing with them in that same capacity. So I think we still got a long view on the stuff. I'm old, but not that old. I got at least another ten, twenty years to run at this and I seen that before. You are I don't know if you ever talked to other founders about it, but if you look at like this business life cycle, everybody so fixated on getting up within this like zero to five year window and getting a big exit or IPO or whatever. But then when you look at the real reality, these, the real big successes didn't blow up that fast. I mean, granted there's so many ubers out there, but when you look at a general you know, the the median of these organizations, we're talking about like a twenty year you know, to really see that big success. And if you look at these venture capital funding models, I mean a lot of these founders are pushed exit in your ten and then velocity really kicks in. You see massive amounts of growth that happens from your tend to twenty and they're on the sideline or working in the next venture. Looking back at all that growth happening, you know that little damn that could have been, could have been part of that ride. That's the one thing I noticed. You know, we're hitting about ten years. We had a lot of these struggles because of the industry, though. Hey, we built the technology too early and whatnot. So I think we're hanging on and we're starting to see that things are really aligning and getting some more tailwind. You know, we want to really keep building off of it. And then I think with the industry itself, is now starting to shift in our favor where we're finally realizing we shouldn't be doing billion our deals and excel. But the now there it's like here's all this emerging ai stuff. You know, if you look at all the trend with gptthree and things like that, it's like, well, a lot of the stuff applies really well the M and a. We can build some cool tools to summarize information and get the information you need quickly when you have massive, massive amounts of data you're trying to analyze on a complex deel to understand the risk and the opportunities in it. So I think there's just tons and tons of opportunities to keep improving and driving optimization when it comes them and A. I do have a question actually regarding pricing models. I just come came to me with the nature of what you guys do. I'm looking at it right now. You're sort of starting points at as thousand dollars per month build annually, so it's, you know, like a twelve thousand dollar kind of set up. I think about, though, the the actual m a process doesn't lend itself going correct if I'm wrong to we're...

...going to need this for ten years, unless we're actually up a m a firm that Conso or a bank maybe that constantly does refinancing. But if I'm just one like if I'm the person selling my company, I'm probably going to sell one company every ten years at most. So it is it your customer base more like the MA firms and banks, and then they just bring in the person who's selling the company for the purposes of that one deal, but in that person exits. Is that kind of the typical scenario? We do have a good portion or business that come from banks or even directly from the client that are selling, and that's where we have those listed prices as single room. I mean we're trying to build a workflow to let them just sign up on their own, because there's not a lot to it. We can essentially provide templates in the workflows for them to do it themselves. Our outbound efforts, when we think of enterprise sales, is geared towards corporations and we put them in three buckets. You have occasional choirs, they might buy zero to one company a year or and then you have frequent a choirs that they may buy a regular to to ten companies a year. Then you have serial acquirers, which you can think of the apple in the Google's, Microsoft is go and when we look at that that's where really good our space. Typically it's a frequent choirs. There one to ten billion market cap companies that do three or more deals a year that have a dedicated corporate development team, about three to seven people, that drive the MNA activity for the organization. That's our prime target. And then, in addition to that are private equity back roll ups. There's a lot of investments made in organizations to roll up industries. Think of specialized clinics, donal practice is we have a big auto body shop, private schools, security agencies, a lot of those fragmented industries that are getting rolled up. Those are great clients for us. Love talking to them because to be able to really build work flows that are rent and repeat, when their acquisition strategies very much similar, it's a great opportunity to create value. HMM, okay, that that helps me get my head around your your talget audience and your pricing model, now that I think about it. Yeah, one big organization could be acquiring twenty companies a year. You don't Miss Ay here about them all. It's funny because of doing this podcast, I'm always on tech crunch and I'm like this company acquired by facebook and it wasn't ever a big deal, but it was. It's they are on tech crunch and you realize that's actually happening every day really and multiple times a day if you look at across the industry. So I can see, especially if the prior way of doing things was like excel sheets and things like that, you really are just naturally digitizing the workflow of an industry that probably didn't have it until you guys came along right so I can see the need. Yeah, Really Nice. Anything else you want to throw in a kiss on before we wrap up the interview? I think we touched on a lot of stuff I kind of mentioned. Our our goal is one get more exposure to the the industry, because I think there's a lot of roles in m a beyond investment banking. So always encourage folks to look at the website content and get a sense of that. And then just the people. At the end of the day, in M's got to change and be more focused about the actual people at impacts and when you're lying around the people, you'll result and a lot more value that's created from these transactions. And where do we find you? Obviously deal room dotnet for the platform itself and m a SCIENCECOM for the education, the media arm, the podcast, anywhere else you want to send people to? Linkedin? I'm on Linkedin, just Kiso N Totel, and I'm happy to connect with folks on there. I'm guessing anyone who's in MNA, or maybe even someone is thinking of selling a large company with you, would you be open to hearing from them? Does that make sense or I can talk about Ma nonstop. I don't have a problem. I'll hit the record button. We'll make a podcast out of it and I'm happy. I love talking shop. I'm welcome the opportunity to get involved answer questions. We...

...host a lot of round table events, I'm it's things that sort. So yeah, absolutely happy to talk to you. But if I all things, have a right, the next time I'm selling my company, I will definitely remember your name. He's on sunk just for the case of having a conversation. So you use have you gone through it before? They'll probably for small we website businesses, you know, never like something where the diligence has been extensive. And Yeah, I know it's can be stressful, but I totally understand the need for you know, as a minimum broker or ideally like a fullblown you know, for managing things. So yeah, yeah, I'll be ready for you. We'll have plenty of resources to help you out. Awesome and Nice to talk to you. Kiss on, keep out the good work. Thank you. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Keisan. It was a topic I haven't really covered much, so I'm glad we got to spend the first half of the interview just asking some basic questions about how merger and acquisition works, how he even makes money, like what does an m a consultant specialist do to earn the ten percent or whatever the fee might be as part of the deal, and just a few of the insights and unique parts of the industry that I wasn't aware of and that was, I think, very, very interesting. And then, as typical for this podcast, we got to hear a SASS start up story, which is also interesting, a bootstrapped one, though not a venture capital backed one, and you know, it's obviously a company that's succeeding in growing. They're hiring a lot and they've found their niche and really scaling within that space of controlling and digitizing the deal flow management process. So great niche to be in an obvious extension of what Kison was doing with merger and acquisition in the first ten years of his life in that space, and now this is the second ten years as well. And, like I said earlier, really enjoyed hearing him talk about content as such a key growth tool marketing process, which he called like having a media company within your your startup. So I thought that was really insightful. Way To say that if you enjoyed this episode and you think any of your friends or family or colleagues would benefit from hearing key sound story, please share this episode with them. This is episode Number Twenty Three of vested capital. They can find that by just googling vested capital or go to the website for this podcast. It's at why a ro O dot blog. That's Yarrow Dot blog. Look for the podcast tab there and you'll find it. It's also available on all the usual channels, so spotify, apple, itunes, Amazon, Google podcast player. Just search for vested capital or my name, Yarrow, why a Ro Oh, and you should find the show and when you're there, if you have it open on your phone, hit that subscribe or plus or follow button so you get all the episodes as soon as I release them, plus access to the full back catalog of amazing interviews I've done with guests like Keyson. If capital and cash flow our topics interesting to you or anyone you know, send them to vested capital. All right, that's it. My name is yarrow and I'll talk to you on the very next episode by by.

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