Vested Capital
Vested Capital

Episode 24 · 11 months ago

(EP24): Gabriele Musella, CEO And Co-founder Of Venture Backed Coinrule, Automated Crypto Trading


Gabriele Musella is a well-educated, well-traveled, co-founder of, a company where you can build or copy sets of rules for automatically trading cryptocurrencies.

The company recently raised $3M+ from MKB Bank, Urban Innovation Fund, Zilliqa and many Business Angels (Kayak Co-founder, EightSleep Founder).

Before that they also successfully ran a crowdfunding campaign on Seedrs, providing funds which helped them to navigate the pandemic when capital briefly dried up.

During this podcast we dive into Gabriele's past, which is full of education (London School of Economics, MIT, Harvard), travels throughout Europe and the USA for various jobs (Nokia, Loyds Bank) and three previous startups before the current one, Coinrule. The most notable was Paylinko, a fintech payments app.

Gabriele has certainly lived a full life so far, and it was exciting to piece together all the highlights that came before his current project and then also spend some time talking about how to build a Crypto trading platform.

Enjoy the podcast.




Hey there, this is yarrow and welcome to vested capital, Episode Number Twenty Four, featuring my guest Gabrielle Museella, the cofounder and CEO of Coin Rule. Vested capital is a podcast about how people make money and put their capital to work. I interview start out founders, Angel investors, venture capitalist, Crypto and Stock Traders, real estate investors and leaders in technology. Today, my guess, Gabrielle is the CO founder of a basic a platform where you can do trading on autopilots, that's a simplest way to put it. So you can set up a bunch of rules to connect with whatever kind of exchange you used to buy and sell Crypto, whether it's binance or coin base, and then you use coin rule to set up rules for when you might want to buy or sell an individual, you know, trading pair. So you might be buying Bitcoin and you you tell coin rule I want to buy bitcoin when it hits this price, you know, this kind of volume, trigger the buy and same with the other way, trigger a cell at the other end. So you can create kind of like automated robots that will buy and sell for you. Now the starting point with a platform like coin rule is to just learn how to use it, play around with the demo mode. You can do experiments, basically just to understand it. But then it gets really sophisticated when you can either take a template that the guys that coin will have built. So they allow you to essentially copy the system they've created. They have a person in their team that helps design those. Those basically bots for you, and this is coming in the future, I feel. But it's also kind of they're already where. Other people are setting up their own custom rules. So people who are more advanced, more skilled, they're building out their own set of rules. They're basically building a trading robot and eventually you'll be able to copy what they're doing as well. So copy trading of other investors via the platform. And is anyone who knows cryptocurrency, if you're looking into the really highly volatile alt coins, you know all the different types of coins that are not so well known, kind of upandcoming projects. Those ones can jump a hundred percent in a day. Some of them I've even seen go up threezero percent in one day. Of course they also can lose that much as well that fast. So with the platform like this is you could potentially automate the buying and selling of a whole range of different trading pairs, different cryptocurrency tokens, and the idea is, you know, to capitalize on those gains. Obviously, investing is challenging. There's no guarantees. You know, coin rule as a platform does not guarantee any kind of result or any kind of outcome. Today, though, the whole point of this interview is a to introduce this idea of what coin rule does and talk about how Gabrielle and his Co founders built it, but it's also very much about Gabrielle himself. So Gabrielle is an interesting guy. You'll hear during this interview. He does have an Italian accent, so it might be a few parts. He talks quite quick I know I got lost a couple of times where I didn't quite understand what he said, but I was very much able to keep the store on track and understand the most important aspects of where we were going and what he was building. In summary, he has done a lot of education in his past. He started more in the design space. He was interested in like, you know, city design. He then got interested in business, which led him more to the interface design, online interfaces in particular, and that's kind of the career he then entered on. He had a job early on and Nokia. He traveled around Europe a lot, either for studies or taking on different jobs, and then eventually to because he ran some startups as well and he was in different accelerators. He theres so much to talk about with his interview. It really went over a lot of different countries and certainly a lot of different topics. I guess in some way the best way to look at Gabrielle's life. He's one part academic, he's one part working for other companies in interface design, another part starting startups. He's had three startups before he got into coin rules. So we hear about all three of those different startups and how they connected, the lessons he learned all the way to the point where finally he meets his cofounders. They go to an accelerator in Budapest, they build the first version of coin rule and then they actually need to get funding. So we talked a little bit about a crowdfunding campaign he did when the company almost went under due to covid and then all the way up today with what they're working on and what they're building for the future. So few big story, fun interview. I really enjoy talking to Gabrielle. He's quite passionate, as a lot of Italians are, so I really enjoyed his vibe. I think you will too. Yeah, it's a great store or of a upandcoming cryptocurrency in tech startup. So coin rulecom is the place to go. And speaking of startups, of course, the sponsor for today's episode is my startup, Inbox Doncom, which is a human being as a service. So basically we provide a human being to in fact two assistants who will take over managing your email for you. So if you're drowning in too many messages in your email inbox or your social media in boxes or any maybe helped this inboxes, you can put in much like coin rule, where they have a technology powered bought, we do the same thing with your..., with a human being powered service. Naturally, email very complex. It's not something where you just want to hand it over to anyone. We've got highly trained, specialized assistance that focus on replying to other people's emails, and not just the act of replying, but the act of learning how to understand the person we're replying for. So we have to really study you, study what you do, study your roll, study your big picture goals, study what you're kind of interface is right now with your what you're doing, how you're communicating, how you're sending messages, how you write them. Who are the most most important people in your life, in your in Your Business? All of that your assistance will learn and then get better at over time so they can take you out of the Inbox, so they can reply to whatever it is one thousand nine hundred and ninety five, even ninety nine percent of your emails, and that can lead to a lot of freedom for you. So if you're spending too much time in your inboxes, if you're stressed out, you need simplicity. You want to gain back hours a day, consider inbox DONECOM. We can assign you to assistance within the next few weeks and we'd love to help you. Go to inbox dot in Bucks donecom. That's I and box donecom. Book a discovery call so we can learn more about your needs. All right, that's it from our sponsor. Now we're diving into the interview with Gabrielle New Sella, the cofounder and CEO of coin rulecom. All right, this is yarrow. Thank you for joining us today. I'm excited to talk to my guess, Gabrielle Musilla. Gabrielle, thank you for joining me, Hi Otah, hi. So, Gabriel, you're the founder of coin rule. Definitely want to talk about that and obviously a lot of your history. I actually very excited to talk to you because you're in the cryptospace. Obviously it's a hot space right now. A lot of different companies starting up, but a lot of lack of knowledge, I feel, in this space as well. So I definitely want to talk to you about that, in particular what you guys are doing with coin rules. So you're helping people with the trading aspect, in particular automated trading. So before we dive into your background in history, would you mind just telling us you know, what exactly is coin rule and why did you create it? Yeah, sure, so conn rule helps. We tell investor trotter made that investment. So we basically keep automedic capabilities for trading. Two normal people like me and you. We come up with these call my three years ago because it was a big problem that we were trying to solve ourselves. Me and I'm Michael Founders, and that's you know, there was not nothing like that on the market, so we decided to create a company. Okay, yeah, I'm very curious about that. Before we dive in the coin roll, I would like to kind of look at everything that came before it. I was diving into your your linkedin and you have a lot of education every hell, so you studied a lot. I'm seeing Harvard, I'm seeing MIT, I'm seeing Laden School of Economics, I'm seeing Alett technical in Milano. You are awesome in hell, sanky. So you are you like to study? What? What? Tell me, what was all that about? Yeah, I spend a lot of money on education. That's right. Since I started school, even at high school, I was always working and studying at the same time. So for me, studying kids in the theory and all the structure, that the the that the intellectual part, and then apply that into my daily work. So if I don't study, I cannot function. Basically, even now I'm studying French and you know, always need to have that intellectual kind of channel going on. Okay, so with all those degrees and qualifications, it sounds like you were doing it, like you said, because you like to study. But was there, I guess, an end game? Did you study specific subjects because you wanted to become a something after it or not? I felt a low with the design when I was really young. My main thing was design, user interface and used experiences and and back then, in fifteen years ago, was not sounding that too straightforward. So I took go through architecture, you know, product design, industrial design, and then eventually ended up at a media lab in Al Sink in Fieland when I did the Mis Cha in program and I was like, okay, this is what I like to do. And then I really turned myself into basically digital designer. I stuffs also to learn programming languages and also went to the MTS a visiting scholar. So for me was a journey. Always I started from more the artistic side and then design and then at the end, I feel would add that Ted they like a business. So and then I started to study a business. Is, you know, several summer schools that you know, let's seemt as we're saying. So I think that's one. I'm a mix of design and business and it's kind of an unusual part, especially when I go and talk with some of the some professor, so even with some people from the NBA, because if you had designer, you don't usually like numbers and crunching big spreadsheets. I'm a maker, so I like to make stuff and to build interfaces product, a digital product, but then I think also like the productal part of make the business work and to create a used case around it that's value to users. So I think, yeah, in a nutual my designer that turned into one entrepreneur, fair enough, and the designer aspect. When I saw that in your history, I was thinking just...

...user interface design, but it sounds like what you're describing that you were interested in the whole topic of design. I mean I was forced into that because I started to the architecture world, so big scale, so you know kind of planning big cities, your must studies, and now went through you know, I did some course of all I can all systems design and infrastructure and buildings, and then I went down to the Pixel. So you know, way that was very useful. You know, going to the big scale, to the very time time scale was really good because it gives you that tumble bolistic approach that sometimes you don't find when you started something that's very specialized. That was my journey. I was almost forced into it because growing up in Italy especial saddle. Really you don't have access to specific, advanced course as you may have if you grow up in UK or US. I don't. Okay. So, once you realize you're an entrepreneurs, who's going to take your design passion and use it in business? I know that. Neither. Again, there's a lot of I guess what was the first after you finished studying, although I know you never really finished studying, by the sounds of things, but when you decided, okay, I'm going to get a job or I'm going to start a business again. I'm seeing a lot of roles you had. So did you get into user experience as an employee first? was that like your first taste? I mean now I'm in the not really. I mean I always worked since I'm like five. Who Most like? Yes, I remember I was young, I used to buy a motherboard, mother boards from your old computers, and then I figured out that the battery actually was already running. For one year there was a small body and most other people that just troy with this mother board. So I was buying this mother board for like five years, change the bottery and there is selling them for fifty years and I was like like eighty years old. So I always said that kind of enter the ship mindset. And then I was working always as I addresser. And then around thirteen years old I discovered out out to programing Isstr Mala Javascrip so I started the building websites. So and that was really a very lucrative job I'm in at that time. I kept always working as a freelancer, like you, through all by university. saw for me was kind of natural already when I finished uni with my master degree, already at like something like five to seven years semi professional experience. That and in fact my first job in fieland was at active work. I was working. I went to work at a Nokia thanks to the job, and what's interesting is now that my first employee in fieland became my first investor in color rule and that also a mentor an advisor. So was amazing. So I always work inside that same time and always around basically digital media and DAX design. So there was never like, you know, this is my first job and always been a continued okay, so the position in Nachia, that was your sort of post studies, I would say that. Yeah, the very Serioeah, the first series professional one. I was a yorks designer. Yeah, okay. Well, were you working on? And there was it interfaces for for what? Yeah, I think I want there was like one big project, was the infronet of Nokia, and then O ca, seements actually, and they were like a lot of data. So my specialization, my master degree, was about complex design and information design when you have a lot of data to visualize. So I think I went there. And Yeah, I was like basically designing gold is huge dish board to kind of monitor the author the production within within or a sements in the infrastructure and also employment engagement, all of that. And then I'd like few other project because that was an agency. I think the big one was the Internet. A lot of data graphs. That A is alizations. Okay, in did you do enjoy? That was a challenge for you? I mean, yeah, I know, a big challenge because all of our sudden, you know, you like twenty. You know, I want I hold I was at twenty two, twenty three and they show you big meetings with lol, the you know, the executives or you know. So you have to kind of learn how to deal with the corporate world and the specific language. And I mean at that age I was like I'd like very long hair, I was very rebellious. So I was interesting and in I feel like, you know, feeland also at same time. So I love this, the Nordic studio feeling. It it's a pretty different from from whatever used to but it was interesting. Right. You were born in southern Italy, you said. Right, was that? Yeah, I never, never see. Yeah, Naples. Okay, right, so enables. I've been Naples once, very briefly, and I've been to not filland but on the other side, Denmark, and it's a little different. But you know what about feeling, I mean actually, I mean first of all I wanted to go there because I grew up in the most corrupted city in Europe. Right, I wanted to see what is the opposite. So and TSI is the less corrupted city in Europe, right, and then I went to the media lab but alter university and may it's amazing all the people that came out of that. I mean one of them starting now is at facebook and I sat coin base and other guy also started a company in that medium at Alta University. Actually, there are a lot of very good, good brains that went. They're on the world and other work in big companies. So it was a good choice. Yeah, sounds like it. Yeah, it is interesting look back on the people you met and where they end up, especially with your type of path, where you studied in so many places and clearly, you know you would have met a lot of different, very in smart people. What happened after Nokia? Did you move on to another role or what was next? So, yeah, now you...

...what happened. Not. Yes, I did that and then I went back. I got my degree for like briefly six months. Oh yeah, and then I was just working this kind of job event with the several stands and there was a vote of one one and they were like a hey, do you know what is a widget? And jolous compulsion was like Oh, yes, sure, like do you want to have an interview in thirty minutes? It's like what? So I did interview and then they offered me like a job, like to start in three weeks or something like that. So that was my first experience in London at part of one and then after that I worked at UBS bank. I think I had a very good selling point. That was this information designed, it evisalization, complex design. At that time it was kind of a very newborn disciplines. So everyone loved it and I that's also the advice I give to like young people at are starting their job. I have a selling point as specialty. That kind of makes you will get the team to combine and then after you can expand or its own done. I think for me was Dada visualization, information design. What years were we talking about here when you say this was in demand? This, however, it's so long ago, at least in my brains. For so long ago, so many startups they go two thousand and ten. I think, yeah, not so. I thought, yeah, two thousand and nine. Two Tho, I think two thousand and nine. Yeah, TBS was amazing. I was the youngest one in the team. They brought all the team from Morgan stally. There was a software they built at Morgan Stary called metrics and there was built still in a don't be flesh, actually flex I don't if you remember the reflex. It was kind of a revolution the doll be flesh jows. Anyway, they brought they did this beautiful trading platform, super cool, like spent a lot of millions. They brought told team from agin stale to ups because you bus wanted to do the same. And I was part of this huge new incoming employees. But and I was working together with a very cool information architect, and there was this basical we are sixty people, audio x, designer and cool you like, in this very obsolete structure, right, I typical investment bank run. You know that if you go into the IT department, it's running waterfall methodologies or very structured and all our sull you have this designer coming in in all agile manners and it was a challenge. You know, I had to tie up every day design you know, put a time a designer and there no at least I kept my hair a little bit shorter, but I still kept them. I think I resisted there like some like ten months, super well paid, but then I quit and I sat to my first start up, my first call. But okay, tell me about that. Yeah, that was a disaster. That us. It was the first one. It was an additional agency that turned into a product company called Club Bora, and the two was the time where a group on was very famous group on. The group on model was getting really, really higher. So we did the same stuff but on mobile for clubbing and bars. We had some traction, but then the team was not try to im it. So many mistakes ill and so much I wentry to go back into contracting. So consulting for some companies London. Okay. Is there a particular mistake you remember from that startup that you took even today with Colin row? Yeah, I think I was just too much about designer back then. So I was. I was designing a lot, doing a lot of beautiful Ui, but I was not really taking considerational all the technical limitation, all the product management methodologies are important, is recruitment. So I was basically a designer with very good monk cups and prototypes, but I was not really pushing for right financials, right business modern and stuff like that. So I was at a bit more naive, as you would expect in first company, but also what was too dallistic Alser. Okay. So so after that you went back to another job, but was there another startup? Yeah, I know there was. There was a very disting period that because I wanted to make it work right the agency and this product ready. So we had a few clients. You know, we are I think I'd Fab you and other Cayeah, I think I two employees. Basically became the jesting time consultant in London, basically old recruiters in London, the one that you know, all the agencies that needed someone for like two weeks just to come in and fix something or you know, they were calling me because I was like look, if you need someone for a couple of weeks, I need to make extra backs because I need to pay my employees and you need to make the agency running. So and I had a lot of conduct of recruiters. So I remember we like two three years where I was doing a lot of these like two or three weeks projects for all sorts of clients, agencies in Lon, like digital agencies. So there was a bit stressful. Kept US going for a while till I was like okay, that's it and they know, let's finish all of that and that closed the company. Yeah, and then I went to the US. Okay, actually, actually there is a we went to the US. was because we had that a few conversation with some angels in Silicon Bad, right in California. So me and one of my employee went to California to meet them, but also was like half holiday so on. And on the way to so we we pass by Boston and I remember the night before going to Boston in New York when I did my master Tisis was about smart cities and the divisorization. There were a few mention of this professor that is a sematical Colorati. Yes, the a LOB consensible city lab...

...and I always wanted to send in all my my empredical work or the book that everyone and everything. So the night before got the Boston just leaves a yeas back is, let's send it. So we sent it and I thought you apply. was like look, can you come to Morow at twelve? You know we have a we have a chart. To Day is the weekly meeting, so you can meet all the researchers. And then I remember I saw that email at one pm, already one hour late, when I was already Boston. So anyway, imagine this like fat guy, because I was like thank you, Loos. More than that long are running through themat. I just menshed into the door in the middle of this meeting and everyone's like who you know? While this is guy, and then then actually the professor and is a system that actually read the emails, like Oh yeah, this is gay, very gay city, a city, and then after that read a chat and then he read my staff is. So my pot falling was like look, you are come here for you to work with us for six months, like yes, sure, and then went back to London. But then what'd up? And it's very interesting. I learned in the first time I'm in the US there was a small mistake on the on the visa. So there was, as got, a discrepancy between the visa and the presidential letter from amity. So they actually send me back. Don't know. So I got stumped on the fastport like, you know, refuse, Broblah, and since then every time I go to US I get double checked from the pot. You know, the two four offs. Why was like was reading. If you go now to MT especially to the Department of Architecture, and you ask, Oh yeah, the guy that does that was sent back, the still remember the problem and then it was like cud experience and then, you know, I remember after that every time I go on all the day. My friends get those cut because they check on my backs. Then the second time I managed to get to the US with the problem vision. Everything has been like a muty for six months. And then after that I went to Movi this in university with the Barabaji, the one that discovered the network. Signed that was also saying DPD type of event. And just to clarify, because it sounds like you went. You're running the agency in London, you're heading to California for a holiday to meet some angels. On the way you go to Boston. You just get offered something, so you say yes, I'll do that for six months. Does that mean you just drop the agency? And you yeah, because obviously the endity had a lot of problems. We you know, there were like just few clients. Was Not going anywhere. So yeah, we just post it. Okay, how do your cause you were traveling with your your friends or your partner in the company, or that was not that was my employee. Yeah, they've employed. Okay, okay, so you close it down. So then you do six months in Mt and then you said, was it California again when you did that network research? A No. Then I was always in Boston, I tell mighty, for six months. Then what happens to these expires? I have my girlfriend in Boston. Well, I go back to London for that six months. Basically started working in a lot of for six months on a contract with the score group and one of the company in double PP I. was a very nicey period and then I started applying to a lot of jobs in the US and I remember at the end I got like actually an offer from Bloomberg in New York and an offer from this lab being in the Boston at not this university with Barabasi. that. And it's funny how I made this professor because I read this book called link. I think somewhere here the book, I must be up there. So it's like ten year before. I read this book on Network Science and I fell in love with it book and then I was talking with someone in Boston. was like, Oh, you know, but by exactually, it was like where can I come to visitings? I can sure come. I got there. Obviously the professor was not there. was busy, but it's like, you know what, subscribe to do this letter. You may get some more information and little I two weeks after subscribe I see an email job opening. They're looking for a data visorization designers like and I go and check who is the day was oditional design at the moment. It was actually a friend of a friend. So actually I talked to him like you know, what do you think about matter of port, folie? Okay, I think you could be suitable. Just supply and then applied and then I got the job and then I went back to the US and still another one and a half. Okay, yeah, well, I feel like we could keep traveling along this very dipeverse background you've got. I do want to move the story forward, though. So I know there was some other startup. So what was the next start up you you focused on. There was one SCOL flair. So basically I come from a family, a generation, generation, of head dressers, so I'm like the fifty generation. So I decided to actually give it that try to join the technology and also the headdressing. So I came up with a crm for addressing or mobile for mobile addressers. That was going well, but then we pivoted. It kind of merged into another comic called Peling Code. This one actually I see the most part. It's one pairing good. So flair buds in Pelico, software was going well, but we saw that the market was very organic. was basically a comma way. You have to manage people and there was no much really technology, cool technology. So we pivoted into failing COO because that was solving a much better need, much interesting need. So at the idea was that you could get paid on a mobile wherever you are, just with that, with that, butapping the card on your mobile phone by using an FC. Actually, now I think work pay release something like this, just like a couple of years ago, and that one was not just for head dressing but was astral for all contractors, only stollars plumbers. I was like doing a lot of his research with the plumbers. I LINCO was there.

...was what was kind of going, but I'd like big class with my cityo. So at the end you know the company it's going. We decided just to close because the team was not right. So in these three companies, the first one about the commerce club being, the second one about headdressing and the third one about this one about payments, I learned a lot of heart lessons. And then when I was at much challenge is accelerator in London, thanks to pay link on this company, I met what they are now my cofounders. That's all I get. That's and that's nic we met. We all at previous companies. We like like these three companies, but we just fell in love with with crypto also. You know, we were getting on very well. So we just decided to actually focus on Crypto and stop our police company, and I mean now it's going well. Yeah, I'd love to talk about that a second. I just wanted to correct one dot. I noticed with paling co there wasn't a blockchain part of that, if I'm understanding my research. Is that true? It's good. At we are talking about that. That's a big misunderstanding and the comes from the FCA. So we actually got accepted to the FCASUND box, so the the financial authority that runs this program for startups and in the PR they just like released payments on blockchain and I thought have look this is. I was like, yeah, look, we already publish yourself. Sorry, now I don't think that that was a blockchain, but it's not. Yes, but we got a lot of a lot of a visibility thanks to the FC. Okay, interesting. Yeah, because we're talking about two thousand and sixteen. Right around about that time you were running palink. So because it sounds to me a lot like what you can do now with your standard mobile phone, using the wallet that's built in to store you hold your credit card and you can just or even the square or something like that. Similar. How is it different anyways, about accepting payments? Not like sending payments. So if you have a plumber, I come to your place, I stole a new boiler, you need to pay me five hundred pounds or dollars. You know you don't have cash. Usually a plumber just be on imports and goes away. But I think you could actually up on your phone directly, beep and then you can accept the money. I'm not sure that he's on the market something that that goes through these a Master Card and then you see the mine directly. Thank you, in your phone and thinking like square in the US with their they originally hands. Quite, yes, quite probably. Yes, you still need to have a set, a separate device, but yet no sense. The propositions very okay. Rape. You didn't have a device, you just had enough. Yeah, yeah, our speak was that your own application for free on the phone okay, interesting. Okay, yeah, let's bring it up to the the current project with coin rule. Obviously you had a very diverse background from the education experience, working clearly in all kinds of different roles, a lot of it in user interface design, but all over the place. Three startups prior to coin rules that you had. You have like the perfect combination of experiences, skills, education. Everyone looks for in a founder really, I know you know it speaking to other investors. They loved to to meet someone like you who starting something. Maybe before we talk about the investing side, though, when you met your your current co founders, was it a case of we already have an idea, let's do this, or we don't have an idea, but I like you guys. I want to do something together. Like, how did that come together? It came together that. Basically I wish you. I mean, I'm both bait going in two thousand and twelve right, and then I sold it and I made six percent and I was so happy because I didn't know. I was like at university and I didn't have much money, little I needed money to go only I and then I'm two thousand and sixteen. I went to check my conbay's account just like it. See, and I saw these other coin called the thedium, and I started buying it and it was going up and up. I saw bully at twenty dollars or something, and then I fell in love again. We quick turn. Then at night while I was something, I was running PA Lingo. I was designing an up similar to block fol you. It is a portfolio up to track your coins, but my goal was to buy a house with crypto. So on the two other kind of a sectualized, goal oriented portfolio up right. So I started the signing this one and then after that I started thinking I wanted to do some automation. I started catching, just like some summer, some idea to how to don interface to all to make my trades. So when I talked to Oleg already at this idea and I show you said, yeah, the funny thing is that we weren't seem accelled on me and know, like this accelerator was a tobacco dogs alone, right, it's it's so I saw former tobacco factory and we had huge tables like twenty meters long, right, and there was I mean, I don't feel if you saw some picture of Ale. Is this a ginger guy like all finally like here with glasses, and it's was super smart, right. And then every time I was I was working nine twenty five. At the time I was contracting, and then my team, much felling, of four people, I would letter, was scart paid by me, by, you know, taking the money from the sale and put it in there. So nine to five, I was working after five hours, going to be accelerated to work with my guys. So I was super stressed and there was still this guy from the other side of the table that every time wanted to meet me and talk to me, have a coffee with you. But and I was like man, I don't have time for this stuff. If I'm like, I have two jobs. But then eventually, after three months, as I could can look ten minutes. What do you want? And then it was start talking and I show him that the sketches, and then it's like, Coud, this is cool, you know, and they start talking more about crypto. So the idea was already there. All I wanted... do something crypto. ZENEC as well, came a little bit later by you wanted to do something more about team take as well. So I think there was a mix of thing, the niche idea plus the convergence. But it was the first sevenance of all I really wanted to meet me that that kind of started the spark. Okay, but you were all in this accelerator for different reasons, like you were therefore paling go and they were there for other companies. Okay, yes, yeah, I get like my haing a mentorship platform that companies can use, where people mentoring each other or something, and Zenec can't, like a super safe authentication system. Actual, yeah, Zane Company. He also pivoted from something, guys, that was something, something like sexual education platform, and then he became a logging system and then so, yeah, oh, we crazy fivants there. I started uting. Yes, actly. Yeah, you guys are all in there. You're talking about this idea. That idea, though, is not any of the three ideas you're currently building individually. So how do you decide to basically kill three projects to come together to start coin rule? How does that conversation happen? Oh my God. So for me, for me, it was very, very, very easy because again, either a cofounder called Gigi. She's a super cool girl and and she's Chinese right, and she was in London. She was still on a visa from the university. But then all of our sun is shooting as a letter from the from the border policing, like look here, business expired. You to run away from looks through. So but I lostar. I co found very because we get being almost important again all these like is a problem. So I didn't. She went their way. Yeah, my city, or that time, the good one went away. I got to the city. So the product wasn't going anywhere because I couldn't be the program myself and my funds were really like a very, very low. So for me was a no brainer. I can know, okay, either get an investment here or I can perceive another interesting idea. Always in the film clip those face all, I guess. Well, I remember when you show me, showed me this product. It was working, but the UI was just like, Oh my God, I was like signing from the s s like. So I was like all, like, I think you should do some more work in them. So and also Jenk. It didn't find I think I don't know the food story with Jenny, but I think it didn't find a way to monetize what he built and actually xenic is confounder died. That's a very bad story. I cared we are laughing about died. Yet the kind of Leknia, like cancer, like we did a Wiki die. So I mean, you start up, would like the case is stuff happen anyway. So in a way, you know, we were after I was onpelling go for like at least a couple of years. So I was already like a bit of tired and yeah, didn't see much of a product market feed and also much of a good team. So I failed in in in recruiting right people also because, you know, recruiting when you don't the money's very, very hard. I managed to do it several times, but you don't get the top notch people right. You get also the interns. You it's very young people, because you have to play it. Would you get? So I think, yeah, we were a bit tired. And also crypto was basically making us a lot of money already because we're buying it to you. So we saw a lot of for to it this and then we finally low. Also technology and now a you know, we prefer more when there's a bear market, because that's where you are the most interesting ideas instead of when there's a book market, I just you just get a lot of people into the space that just just want to make money. The aspectulators. Okay, so through clearly a very diverse range of circumstances, you all realize you could come together to start and actually work on coin roll. Did you, all three of you, say, okay, we're shutting down our current projects, or do you say, let's work on this together on the side? And how did you build the first like MVP? How I was very strictly with allar because then I came after one year about with all exile. Look read their work or not, because other life. So let's give it Tue ourself one month to months to actually a close, the other companies are not close by, just to park the project. So yeah, I think it just up and utually I kept the pelink open a little bit because I penning as a brand that ane lot of success. I got invited for two three years to the the bankers the INA. I was sitting, you know, with the with the revolute Monso or, you know, the mccarney. I was thanks to Pelico because actually the brand was very strong. So I kept it open. So that we could see still lissing coming leads from like events of pitching, a pitching opportunities. For two months I got to open but then, yeah, after I went full time, fight away all I still led like a part time job and in the after one year, I think, all like college. Yeah, just also give up to the job. So I hours basic at the first one to go full time on coin roup and I remember a very specific moment where two thousand and eighteen, he was around, I think January, two thousand and nineteen. Finally we got accepted to an accelerator that was an Angaria and accellate in Buddhapest. Right. So first of all we got this incoming leads, like saying hi, guys, you want to participated, like Sido from popelling ll right. So it's like and as I was like look, now I'm working on coin rule. You would like to apply with this with the other commers, and they were okay, we got accepted. They gave us under K plus three months of accelation in Buddhapest. So it's very funny because a lot of base... all International. You're in the ET center of the startup. You know, ecosystem in Europe. We have to go to Buddhapest to Actually Fund Rais and the one accelerator and and text star didn't accept us. All the other good accelerators in Europe leadactable anyway. So we got accepted. And then I remember this that not one night we're on the phone with dollar again. It didn't want to eatdn't have the I think at that moment you didn't want to kind of quit the call. This job is a for days a week job. You know what's that? Look, we can do maybe I can come there the weekend, I can come back to London. Maybe it is. It's like, look, I'm taking at you by right now. Let's meet at this pub next year. Place it was eleven, eleven pm, but to night it's like yeah, let's talk about this, because that's where a lot of entrepreneur fails to make the jump. When it some ends of they do it very early and it's a mistake because you need the six months to set up your company and, you know, to to actually sort out all the other means and operation and the basic things. Some people they don't chump and they are credited of the Pty. By this case, we had an offered that and all. It was just like two cautious so we ended powers are look, we don't do we didn't joined the after radio. You come through term or for me, because a company. I'm lucky. Sometimes I'm just black and white and and it was like, okay, let me think I understand, because you know, that job was nice and befo days a week was perfect. But we found a good social that he did want it. You came to Buddhapest in the march. He did one month working remotely from them, so I could kind of juggle the two jobs. But then after it was good time on corn and that's what the actual company started, because we were four of us in one place into the accelerator, and that in fact we want as a best startup in axce ray, though we did the under K, we also got more investments from other two angers at the guy from feeland. That where my first employees. So everything came together. It was very intense, not first football intense, because also broke up with my girlfriend after five years because I went to Uda best. So yeah, it was was all of a sudden I changed my life. I'm in Buddha rest. I grew up with my girlfriend finally have a company that test funding and this kind of it is going well. So what's a roll a coe? Typical Role? A course. Okay, did you cut your hare by then? We ress and yeah, it was already cut much before. Keep the haircut story, like all right. So let's talk exactly about coin roule. So you built the first version. When did you get your first customer and like what was that first version? Yeah, so the VP was made in the four weeks during the accelerator. Yeah, we had the few first first cut for first customer. I think the building the community of one hundred the users the first one was not too hard, thanks to microfhunders. All that is very good and creating that momentum is a very good network. Yeah, we had like the first customer trying of trading like five hundred thou the first one. We had like a lot of bags. So some of them we also we were like this get giving the product for free and also breathing very cautious. Maybe, just before we talk more, I would be really good is to break down what does coin rule allow you to do? Like how does it? Yeah, so, basically, with car or you can do an automation right on trading. So instead of buying and selling a specific time, you know, sitting in front of a laptop at night or when the price drops, you can actually say, if this happened, do that. So it's like I fttit for Crypto. So the structure is always like if calm bitcoin goes down three percent by this other coin and the specific price given certain conditions, and then you can actually set up which condition. You can say volume, price, all the other indicators. So it's very set forward. You can say a bitcoin goes down by this other fine or if this happened to this and that. It's a very visual, very simple to use, no programming skills needed. It's a no cod platform and you can create more than tenzero different automatis. Basically, you can also use some of the ten plates we already are now. I know when I first heard about coin rule and I start looking into it, I was like, but I don't actually transfer and trade on coin rule. It interfaces with the actual exchanges like finance and coin Bas and so on. So how does how does that work? Do you have to like API in so that coin rule can trigger transactions through through those platforms? Is that right? We give super power to to the exchange is basically, yeah, laid on top of a coin based binance. We have more than eleven exchange is integrated. So the way to works. You can just create an API key. It is a string of letters and numbers on your exchange. So you do your registration there. Your Wallet is on the Exchange. We don't touch your money. But then you copy and paste these key on coin rule and then the two machines are connected and you build the atomission on Colin rule and then Colu send the buying and selling instruction to the underlying platform when it's needed. So coin was like a robot that's trading on my exchange account. Now, the other thing I thought of when I also first heard about Colin rules, like I could see myself just giving myself like a price point I'm happy to buy at. But then I thought the true power here is that like what the big financial firms do, where they're setting up algorithms to basically constantly like to fast training throughout the... just to take advantage of, you know, sudden drops and and I was like, I wouldn't even know how to create that structure. And I believe coin rule does provide some kind of templates to start with. How is? How did you design that? We have a head of trading in our company. I need designs all the templates. Now at nome we are were on the twere different time plates that you can use on your kind of choice. So obviously we have access to all the coins that you have a bin once on Coin Bay, so you have thousands of thousands, and we give also the templates. And what's interesting is that we are not like a black box investment to where you put the money, you go away and you get your five percent per moment or whatever, but you actually see what's happening. So you may win select that Tim Plate. You see the structure and you can decide what's the amount here, with some on that, what's the price point, and then you press play yourself. Thank you. I appreciate the explanation. I want to talk about the founding story here, but I really need to understand what you guys do. So that's really great. I'm assuming not all those features were there from day one, like you had to kind of start adding things as you went the MVP was probably just a some basic rules, like if this is this price, by and where you go right. I also know you did a crowd funding campaign as well as later on an actual rays which is the most recent rays, and you got some amazing backers. Kayak founder. Eight sleeps in there. I've got it a sleep bad. Yeah. So, but maybe we can do this in order with the last sort of ten fifteen minutes we have. So you guys get some funding from Buddha pest with the accelerated there you get somethings investors. After you finish it, you've built the MVP. Your cofounder was able to sort of find the first hundred and then you'd sort of go from there as yeah, yeah, I try. Yeah, we with Mkb Bank, Thedan goody an Saletto was a bit more complex because they give us k. They were like, okay, you'R, you will love your comment stuff, but since you're Crypto, our board of director cannot approve the extra under K if you don't bring a CO investors. And they tell us like this four weeks prior to the end of the program we're like only you know, Oh my God, where are we going now? And then that's where we went crazy like and was difficult to find the angel. And thank God that you know. Mike's was came and then I really added the extra I think K and that was the first round. But then what happened? There was a pandemic. Right fast forward. No, there's a lot of stuff. Will build a lot of things. And then a fast word. We arrived in March where we were starting the new found raise. This is March twenty twenty. We had a time she on the table for like some two hundred and fifty k from one fund in London. Literally the time she was with something like the fifth or March, and the pandemic Alan only hit on the eighth of March, when you when you became real, well, literally like and and the investor sent us an emails like look, guys, the valuation we gave you now we can give it anymore. I think was valuation of four million pounds. I mean, if you want the same deal, the valuation will be one point seventy five. So what? Like yeah, because we need to save money for our partfolio companies. So I'm sorry. Did and I was like, okay, we are basical fundraising at same valuation of one year ago. This is not good. Like we're just giving out you know, shares like like this, but same time that we had very, very not much, not much cash in the bank. So it was that was very face fool because between March and basically June, we have to weird lack parlor money. We went put people on four low, we had to fire two people and the team shrink to to five people. And what was interesting also the our employees by themselves. There's like look, I can't cut my sorry by twenty percent. No problem. So it was amazing. Quiet really saw how they were stepping up and helping company. So we had to basically build everything from scratch, old all the fundraise and that's why we came up with the idea of doing our crowdfunding campaign. I came up with with this fandom. You know, being a designer helps because your that credit part that comes and sounding really helps. So I don't know why I build a page like investing us on our website right, and I put it on on top many. I don't even if it's legal. Probably it's not. Well, let's a shoot it s so you go there anyway. That I was like look, before we do see there, let me try just what out that we look at the funding and being by ourself on on the website, and then I saw that a lot of people were requesting like to investment. Kate and Kate K. So we build a huge backlog, or at least fifty people that want to buy some amount of money on our cun our company, because what we add thanks for another growth taking trick that the previous year we build. We had a lot of traffic on platform. So even if so, even if these people were not becoming users, they were actually they were knowing about us and they like the company. The about US pages are so they actually wanted to invest. Do you man sharing with the growth aques, Gy odous too securiously? Yeah, yeah, that's I told everyone. I by now. We build the machine. That's why they so there was this friend of mine, Buddha. First we got these big guls with to start up. This phenoment to me about this system to build a lot of lending pages and really kicked with me. So I went off on a tangent and I got a...

...lot of free lensers and people. Took like thirteen people in different three months to actually build stuff. But it's basically we have a matrix of awards and from that medical wards and Syn animals and variables. We generate thousands of thousands of landing pages that drunk very, very well. So some of them rank first position on the first page of Google. And I'm talking about hundred, Sixty Tho landing pages that and we generate every month are twentyzero. So we have this machine now that continuously generates lending pages with the specific content, with the keywords or exchanges, coins, crypto strategies, and obviously, so I generates a lot of traffic. A lot of traffic, okay. And and then there is like the similarity of the pages that you know, Google kind of does rank that. So there's a lot of work to do. Also on n sending. The original is the content. So thanks you that. We create a lot of traffic. So these people. Basically we build a huge backlog of people that want to invest and thanks to that, basically, we then started building the crowd funding campagne. On Sea. There's and and basic on the way to works on see, there's or only crud funding platform is that you have to bring at least forty to fifty percent of the funds you want to fundraise and then when the campaign opens, you're in at fifty percent as momentum when people join. So I could hard funding helps for amplifying your race. Doesn't help freely to fundraise, but we build a lost of these things. So we said in that position, a lot salaries, a lot of people interested. We started crowd funding campaign and at some point the lockdown finish, towards July, we rended a huge feeline create in Greece. We just went all the team plus some friends. We are twenty people in Greece and we were working from there. That we send the video maker down there so we should video the very nice video that is online. So we had this beautiful video in my story before one and that. And then I remember we started with the sounding like, I think, one hundred and fifty k. That was the target of the campaign. But then on private mode, because you can have also pret sell, we already reached something like two hundred and forty and then in private mode, the second day of the Californing Company, when it was still private, we just went hundred percent. What is the doesn't make sense. You already that underd percent anyway and we are still in private. So I to open the campaign very quickly and then we went on the platform. You know, there was so much momentum that we read that I think two one hundred two percent. So we raised five hundred fifty K pounds, and so I went to very well, we never did any marketing till that point. We were very all everything was organic with the growth fact. So I think the crowd funding company was the first kind of Brend awareness top of initiative we did and it works very, very where. Yeah, we brought us to the radar of a lot of this season and engines. Yeah, what was the valuation for the crowd funding, because obviously it was four million million pounds before. Do you remember that? I mean not far from the front, Excel Ato. The first investment was in pound one point two pounds. was very and then for the crowd funding was four point six. I'm always missing because billion dollars and pounds. So with I mean we can look it up and that's fine. It was similar to what you originally were hoping to raise before. Yeah, it was, it was, but still a kind of realistic. I remember in in October when we found RESPDK. We are making ten cam month since last November, in two thousand and twenty till now. We made the basically at ten x. So now make it around a care month. So the market, you know, really picked up, but also we solved a few problem on platform and the bounce the marketing help. Okay. And then what happened? We were, I remember, in May, with the market this made this two thousand and twenty one. We already were talking with somebody cease to do kind of a seriously. So at high valuation, all of that, and the market was really bullish. So it was May. We were making sounding like hunder sixty km month. So was very good numbers for our series there. And then we receive a message from Y. See why I convened it. Now we have played for W on builder for like, I know, like six seven times every it's like a kind of religion, which isn't you know? They actually reach out to us when we're this high, MR and it's not really typical, because usually you got to work on me the way, you don't have any revenues right. anyways, yeah, we had a chart there. You know, the interview does. It's a ten minutes interviews, ten minutes interviews. It's very, very, very hard. They just should like questioned one after the other by Avenger. We made it so I remember hard our group partners starts for a call at eleven pm. We're like super tired on a Friday night and it was like if you're in real like little just destroyed because you'll be working a week. Was A quio type. Yes, you happy as by hate seven PM, but we're not been sleeping for like two days with are in California. And then we joined our company. I was I was a bit skeptical at the beginning because basically in this batch they were like four hundred eight companies and only around five ten combines where at our stage themsel of monthly revenues, right. So you show you that like their much early stage company. So I didn't want to also because we had to move the combine to the US and I struggly. I mean I'm the OPION. I strongly believe in Europe and I lived in the US a love it, but I don't like specific thing of that kind of society system. So I...

...didn't want to move the combine in the US. I like the UK, the UK legislation. I like see the legals. That is the platform that allow you to do everything. The UK in themselves fundraising and legal documents for start up anyway. So it was a hard decision for me, but eventually understood that was the right one. So the program was just you know, it's just great. Once your part of that that network, work company or you're like a superman building. You have access to everything everyone. We got mentorship from the founder of airbnb, the Founderstrie, the founder of a twitch, so many good people. Everyone is willing to help. They really there like a very, very good Internet called book face, not facebook, a book face, and that's the Bible. They still like a lot of stuff. There is. There's a lot of very, very, very, very interesting and important inflation. So, yeah, we all have so many questions. I you've got to go in about five minutes. I feel like another half an hour, but wrap it up. I do want to know clearly you're at a you're still a fairly early stage, but you've you've already grown quite rapidly. Where do you want to take coin rule and how do you plan to grow it to the next phase of the life? Yeah, that's not mean we have some plans, but that's it's very hard. So what we did, we will find. There is now, I think, two point two million dollars. And you know, as you said, we had the founders of twitch joining fitbeat, Kayak Nowa Rabi come to a fund, the guy from its sleep, Zillka Kabita. So very good investors. We also declined five UNDRE K from binance Forgram, but because we didn't want to dilute ourself much. But now, basically, we have to spend money. So we have been very thrugh goal to now and we are very good at that. But we are learning in the company how to spend money. So we are recruiting a to extra developers, designers. The team is, says, becoming now it's like fourteen people, by it's becoming twenty people. So we have few main features that we are deploying. One is the back testing. So we're going to build the simplest back testing in the world. So the ability for you, if you beat the strategy, to actually go back in time and test the strategy in a different market condition. How to would they performed in two thousand and eighteen P exam so that you can actually uninformed the guests how the strategy works and you can tweak it before launching it. That's very important and then we also working on a marketplace, so an ability of creating a strategy selling it on the marketplace, and also to do copy trading, so you can actually copy someone else face the same way you do on each or. So these are just two of the big models that we are building. But then there is also our talk into the defy space and other exciting features. So they's like as if it's Toff, you can we are doing and now we're using also O K are. So to make us more focused. We also change the way we work on the product team. So now we have like big models and everyone works on that thing for like one month instead of before. We're doing a lot those more things. So I think, yeah, those are the main the main actions going to take as fantastic. Yeah, it does feel like, you know, it's almost like day one still. Yes, your platform. For a lot of people it's a place to set up a free account and actually just use the demo trading account this to learn how this whole you know, automated trading system works. I think is fantastic. I'm assuming you, like you said, you got over was a hundred thousand users, but it wasn't sure how money are paying but you've got right now. Anyway, I'm reading like a thirty dollar month plan in a sixty dollar month plan, which I'm assuming are for the more advanced people who get comfortable with that. That's like basically that's kind of like the customer path, right. They become beginners, they learn, they get comfortable in the upgrade and start using, you know, the paid version. All right, yes, yes, yes, I think that that. I mean the best way to do just join going release to try, for you know, the FAE account, the demo rules. You know, you can build a two, a three them rules. Just have fun and then once you see the sounding works after a few weeks, then you can actus. Okay, let me try an upgrading to the twenty two dollar plan and and see. You know, the factory, my my apodicies works in the real market. Yeah, we like the idea of copy training at some point too. I can imagine people, you know you have those superstars, will show up and come up with these amazing algorithms that they built and then you can just click copying where you go. So that would be that's very quick groundbreaking. I know eutro kind of made it happen with just general trading. But yeah, you're doing it with with the diversity of coins and so many all coins exactly. Yea, all the yeah, the look up card, the new ones that have more kind of ability to grow, grow faster. Yeah, they jump around like crazy. So you've got to go Gabriel thank you so much for sharing. Obviously, coin rulecom the place to go any other websites you want to share. I think you know also on our blog and our medium you can find a lot of strategies. We also publish the strategy of the week on Instagram, so you can now look at that day. Is a Huben our ahead of a trading that knows a lot about cryptos. So you always show these steps. Awesome. I feel like we should do this again in a year or two just to see, you know, what's the next few phases. But thank you, Gabrielle. That was a lot of fun. Let's do that perfect. Thank you. Yeah, howbody, you too. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Gabrielle you sell,...

...a d CEO and Co founder of coin rulecom. I really enjoyed it because I felt we were able to do a solid review of kind of like these three key parts of his life, his experience with in education, in design, his time working for other companies like Nakia, so many other companies as well, and then his three startups that he had before he then launched coin rule. You should definitely check out his linkedin if you get a chance. It was challenging for me as an interviewer to go. Where do I take this, because there's so many different points on his linkedin. I could have probably asked him for three hours worth of stories, but we have we had only an hours. I had to squeeze it in there. I do feel like it's there were a couple points that really stood out to me that I just want to briefly highlight to you as a way to also or remind myself of them. One of the things I thought was really interesting was how Gabrielle talked about keeping his previous start up, pay link go, which was a fintech start up for micropayments, or payments to contractors, and I thought that was interesting that he kept it going even though he was well and truly focusing on coin rule. He kept payling go going because they were getting a lot of invites to pretty prestigious events with other fintech companies, and that was obviously great for networking and probably meeting potential investors, maybe staff members, things like that, and it shows the power of being in a hot topic area or hot industry. In fact, I think Gabrielle even said that he was like, if you're a new entrepreneur or even someone young considering what to study, focus on the emerging markets because there's just so much interest. That means you can either get a job but at a startup, you can certainly potentially start your own company and perhaps it will be easier for you to get funding and very likely be easier for you to get into accelerators, which is the other point I wanted to share with you. I really found it interesting how Gabrielle was in lots of different accelerators. I counted at least three during this interview. Early days accelerator, the Budapest accelerator and then why culminator as well. I felt like for him it just seemed normal. Like you, you go to an accelerator as like a stepping stone, almost like a step one, once you've got your idea on your cofounders, because it's going to get you that initial whatever it is twentyzero up to a hundred thousand dollars, and it'll help you to build an MVP, to really commit to the fact that you're starting a start up. And obviously there's all the connections to investors and so on as well. So if you kind of marry those two ideas being in hot and emerging markets and going into accelerators, it's a pretty clear path for a new entrepreneur today, which is really wonderful to say that there are so many different accelerators. And let's point out too, how cool is that you can travel to these exciting countries. I mean, I know he said he was a little upset that they did not get to stay in London, where they all were at the time, so they had to go to Budapest instead. But as a person, I'm a digital nomn, I love to travel, so the idea of kind of connecting travel with your business. I know accelerators are very time consuming and you have to kind of be all in, but you could certainly get a bit of experience of the other new city you're in when you're going through the accelerators. So anyway, I found all this very exotic, very exciting. All the topics. I love new technology, with CRYPTO STARTUPS, obviously, world travel, just the diversity of people in places. So I really enjoyed listening to Gabrielle and I feel like we're very much of the early days of coin rule as well. I recommend you had to call realcom and click that invest button if you have a bit of money, so you could possibly get into their next funding around. I'm not sure if they're still going to do any kind of crowdbased funding, but there might be an opportunity to as they continue to grow. Okay, I hope you enjoyed this one. If you did, I would love you to share it. I feel like there's a lot of good reasons to share this interview with anyone who's interested in startups, or maybe anyone who's in the academic world just to hear how Gabrielle Transition from academic to working to start up founder and so on. Share this episode with them. It's number twenty four of vested capital. You can go to vested capital podcastcom, which will take you to my blog in the page where I keep the podcast. You can also subscribe on spotify, on Apple Itunes, on Google podcasts, on Amazon podcast even in the audible APP we listen to audio books. You can type invested capital and find this and then hit the subscribe button or the follow button, or it could be the plus button, whatever button they have for you to stay a subscriber. You'll get every episode as I release them. You'll have access to all the previous episodes of vested capital plus all the best episodes from my previous podcast, with the previous version of this podcast, which was called the Yarrow podcast and before that the entrepreneurs journey podcast. So I've highlighted about fifty more on my best episodes in there. So you've got plus seventy. Now I think you can dive into a very much focused on startups, investing technology, all of the cool topics that best that cut bested capital covers. Okay, that's it for me. My name is yarrow. I look forward to speaking to you on the very next episode. Bye. Bye.

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