Vested Capital
Vested Capital

Episode 3 · 4 months ago

(EP3): Baird Hall Co-Founder Of ChurnKey, Wavve, ZubTitle, How The Wavve Acquisition Deal Got Done, Solving Internal Problems Leads To New Companies

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In the previous episode of Vested Capital (EP2), we talked with David Horne and Marty Balkema, founders of Calm Capital. They had recently acquired the company Wavve.

On this episode, Baird Hall, one of the co-founders of Wavve, shares the other side of that acquisition, as the seller of Wavve.

Baird takes us back in time to the origin story of Wavve, how it was a spinoff company from their first business when they needed to create audio snippets for sharing on social media.

The spinoff companies continued when they needed to create captions for audio within Wavve, which led to the creation of ZubTitle, a company Baird co-founded with a different partner.

Both Wavve and ZubTitle grew to earn over $100,000 a month each - 7-figure companies.

ChurnKey, Baird's latest company that helps subscription businesses deal with churn, was created as a result of needing to solve the churn problems within Wavve and Zubtitle.

Baird, as you can probably tell, is amazing at using a need in one company as the genesis to create a new company.

Of course, it's very challenging to grow one company, so working on two or even three at the same time rarely works. This is one of the reasons Baird and his partners made the choice to sell Wavve, so they could move on to focus on ChurnKey.

All of these companies are covered in this interview, which I know you will enjoy if you like SAAS startup stories leading all the way to exciting exits.

Enjoy the show.

Yaro

Podcast: https://www.yaro.blog/pod/
Blog: https://www.yaro.blog/

Hello, hello: This is Yaro and welcometo vested capital episode three, where I'm excited to introduce you to BardHall, the founder of Wave, which is a company he just sold to com, capitaland calm, you might remember, or the guests, the founders of com, capital,Marty and David were on the last episode of this show episode to ofvested capital where they explained how they began their holding company, calmcapital, and in that you would have heard a story about wave their mostrecent acquisition. Well, Bard is the CO founder of waves. So you do get tohear the other side of that story in this podcast, where Bard explains to uswhy they decided to sell to calm. There were other potential buyers at the timealso making offers. He explains why you even want to sell. So you get a goodsense of that side of the transaction, but mostly this podcast is a fantasticdeep dive into the history of a Sassar wave. Is a software tool for podcasters to make social media clips to help grow their show, and throughout thisjourney you going to hear from day zero all the way up to the acquisition andsale of wave and within that store you going to hear some really interestingsidesteps because often- and this is definitely a common thread with Bard-he would come up with a solution or create a feature or need to solve aproblem in an existing business of theirs, and that would result in thecreation of another one. In fact, wave itself was spun out because theycreated a feature of their first company that didn't actually you know,take off, but then it turned into wave and then within wave. Another companycalled subtitle was spun out when they needed to create a future for wave Zebtitle, which is a transcription tool captions on videos and so on, isactually now also earning over a hundred thousand in monthly run rate.So Bard broke a few rules in my book anyway, with starting multiple projectsat once, but he's made it work and it's very clear why you're going to hearbear give a a great example of why he was able to do multiple projects why hechose to do multiple projects at once, and it's worked. He's had two sevenfigure: businesses, one he's just exited he's now on to turn key, whichis his current business, which certainly solves a big problem withchurn subscription sights that have a lot of churn. They have a tool forhelping reduce that and, of course, that tool came about because I need toreduce churn in wave. So every company was born from another company in thisstory. I think you love it and I really want to thank bared for being open andsharing so much so you're going to learn a lot from this. Just before Istart the interview, I want to recommend you check out in box done com.That's what this episode is brought to you by that's my company that can helpyou manage your email and your customer service. So if you're currentlydrowning an email messages, maybe social media inbox messages linked inInstar, twitter and so on, perhaps you're doing a lot of help desk ticketsupport any of those areas where you need to do customer support orpersonally dealing with a lot of email in your own. In box, we provide adedicated inbox manager, usually more than one person who will step inmanager, email but also reply to your messages, and we get you out of your inboxes at least eighty ninety percent, even a hundred percent. We can get youout, so you never have to deal with email again check it out at in box donecom. Now, let's begin the interview all right, so here we are with bad hall.Who is well, I know first of all is the founder of wave but he's actually thefounder of three other companies, possibly more that I don't know about,but Bart, I'm happy to have you great to meet you yeah, Hey your thanks forhaving me excited, chat, yeah. So just a get a background for those who arelike me, who might not know you. I found out about you because you werethe founder, a Co founder of a company called wave, which is actually thefirst place. I ever saw your work, that was by Indie. Hackers seems to be aplace where you know all kinds of great entrepreneurs are hanging out lately.This I dived into what wave did because as a podcast in myself, whey was a toolfor creating like social content out of your audio, which was awesome, then, alittle later on discovered, you were actually acquired by a company calledCom capital which I just had the guys on the show. I know you know them wellMardi and David E, just on the podcast literally there just before you, sothis is going to be a great connection to their story since they're Chire ofwaves, so we can see both sides of the equation. But can you just give me arun down besides wave? What else are you in charge of now? And what do youconsider your most significant? You know businesses from the past.Currently four different companies wave. It was our first company and when I sayI'll say we a lot because I have multiple co founders across all thesecompanies and Zeb title is another company which is an online video,capting and editing tool, duplicate, which is a podcast transcription toolthat turns podcast in the blogs and then the most recentt is Chinky, whichis a tool that we actually built...

...internally for all of our companies. Tohelp prevent Churn Jerkey is, is a bobcat pool that helps SASS companiessave turning customers at the point of cancellation, so currently up to fourstarting one, while selling wave was maybe a little aggressive, but we gotthrough it. I was a busy couple months, but now the calm teams up and run inand doing great work with wave and we've shifted our focus to mainlyzebite and curney. Okay. So there's a lot going on there. I remember,following along with wave and how you D, You know, hit a hundred thousandmonthly run rate, so well really over a million, and I then think you hit twomillion run right and then you decide to sell. So a lot of questions aboutwhy even sell a company- that's growing, that fast before we dive into the wavestory and- and maybe this will help connect the dots of which theseprotests came. First, because I know your background a little bit and youwere not always in tech right, so I born in Charleston South Carolina andget that right, born and raised there. Did you go to school for anythingbusiness for it? Actually, I was actually born and raised in Kentucky.Actually, I grew up on a horse farm we trained in raised in train Tennessee,walking horses. So sometimes I think back to that. It's just a very unlikelyplace to wind up working in tech, yeah walking horses. Just what is exactlythat mean? What do you what's? A walking horse and an all horses walk tthey're called Tennessee walking horses is a specific breed, they're, reallybig horses with really high. They walk really high as kind of their kind ofwhat's special about them, but we have we raised them in, would show them andand yeah. I grew up on a farm in Kentucky, but I moved to Charlestonabout ten years ago after I graduated college, my sister was living here andstarted working for a tech company called Black Bod and did sales supportwent to a start up. That was early stage, and that was my first taste andlike watching a company start almost from. I was the ficte tenth employeeand I was there for five years and as the company got bigger, I startedrealizing that I really enjoyed the early stage of companies, not so muchthe scaling and you know growing, which is what that company started to do, andso I left and started my first company with Nick my original co founder andthat was back in two thousand and fifteen. We started a. We tried to build. Well, it's easy toexplain now. Finally, we try to build a club house. For the most part, it was avery similar to club house, but it was a syncretist. So, instead of live audiochats, they were community based a synchronous, audio chats, and we workedon that for like a year and a half, and we just made all the classic start upmistakes and that's that's kind of how it all got started. So how did you youmeet Nick, our wives or best friends, and they got tired of hearing US talkabout all of our cool start up ideas and they were like you all just need togo to starbucks and talk to each other about the stuff, because we don't wantto hear any more. So we is actually kind of interesting.We kind of locked into a good process, I think of becoming partners. We wouldmeet up every Sunday at starbucks and no agenda. We would just talk aboutideas, what we're working on, what we're interested in, and we did thatfor probably two or three months and just started finding out that we kindof thought about things similarly had complimentary skill sets, and then wedecided to start that first company. It was a good low pressure way to reallyget to know somebody how they think, because I could only imagine I'vereally looked a awesome, co founders. Everybody works really well together,honest fair people, and I could just only imagine how bad it could be if youpicked the wrong partner. So it was a good way to meet each other reallylearn each other before making any big commitments, because you wind upsplitting your life down the Middle Er, you know once a company's up andrunning. So that's how we met and, as you say, you tend to spend more timewith your business partner than your wife, your husband right. So it's ait's a very, very constant relationship. I do have one curiosity, I'm just I'malways curious about this. When you were back in in university or college.What did you actually study? I was a communications major. I was of Corse tocareer to six PA. I think I was never really interested in anything in schoolwhich led me to not enjoy studying or goingall that much. But finally, my junior year of college, I started studyingcommunications, which was a lot of it was a mix of like advertising. Writingyou know, understanding interpersonal communication, corporate communicationand that's when I really just got interested in how people communicatewith one another and it's kind of been a constant theme through W L at leastthe first few companies was all about helping people communicate more clearlyon the Internet, whether it's by promoting their podcast or gettingtheir videos properly set up for social media and making things stand out. Andhow do you get people's attention on the Internet so that was kind of theearly? I would say this is the first field of study I ever got interested inand it's interesting, the farther I get away from school, the more I enjoylearning because I actually get to...

...choose what I want to work on and canapply it to businesses that I start so. I also agree: I'm exactly the same onreading textbooks back in university was like torture, and now I can read abook and you know you get through it in a couple of days and you love it so thepower of getting to choose what you study thought makes a big difference.Right, love to know to so you two you meet each other. You know you'regetting to know each other, and then you decide to start a club house so ona synchronise audio platform which, to my mind, sounds like a little bit of atechnical challenge in turn to words, especially in two thousand and fifteenyeah streaming content, multiple users at the same time, not an easy thing todo. Why did you guys think you guys could do it? We be naive, most likely yeah and wetried to do it. This was just when, like hybrid mobile APPs were startingto come out, so we used Gosh. I can't remember the name of the platform thatwe use. It's been so long, but it was like one of the first kind of hybridframeworks for building IOS and Android AP. So, on top of all that, we wereusing this new technology that were, people were still trying to figure outyeah. I feel bad for Nick and all those development hours that went intobuilding this thing, because we actually got a mobile hap up andrunning and had thousands of users who acted happy like people love. Thisthing was this: We found some really niche groups that loved it and inhindsight, yet we was a lot of nick time. We wouldhave done things a lot differently. We made all the mistakes, it was calledYutok and for that was a trade mark. To is right from the beginning. We pickeda trade mark name, and that became a problem down the road and you guysdidn't have the trade Mik, someone else a yeah. We didn't have the train morehouse and we didn't think about revenue models or how we were going to monetizeit. It was just basically like hey this guy de is really cool. We it reallylike it. Let's go build it. We didn't do much customer discovery. We just dida lot of things wrong, as is a pretty painful first year, but I'm glad we didit because it led to one of the tools that we built to try to make thiscompany work cause. We had all these users sharing audio content on our APPand we needed a way to put it on social media and so nick built a tool thatturned these audio clips, that people were recording into face book videosand once we started sharing those podcast, ers and other people started,saying: Hey your APPs, not that cool. But how did you do that? How did youcreate that video and that's when the light bull went off for like? Oh? Thisis what it's like to like solve somebody's problem, and actually yousell them a product that helps them do what they want. Okay, so I got a fewquestions here. Nick sounds like he's a quite a good engineer developer. If hecan build a lot of these tools and it correctly from wrong, he was doing thelion share of the coding based on the way you described it. You also aprogrammer on some level nope. I tried that first year and realized that itwas just not it's not for me. So I do everything most of the confounders aretechnical and I do all most of the marketing support sales projectmanagement. All those things everything else. Okay, that's great! What you Imean it's a challenge supplying good developers, I'm the same as you I'm nota programmer and do all the more etting side of things. I have had troublefinding the development side, so you've lucked out with the CO hounders Ireally did nick is a he's, a Unicorn in a lot of ways. He he's a former lawyerand passed the bar and then decided to become a software developer and he'sgot a degree in economic. So he has really wide range of expertise. Thatreally comes in Handy, so I got lucky getting paired up with him early onright, yeah. I think I member reading that, because you so were both not fromlike entreprenant and then you sort of get hey. Let's do software, which iskind of you, know ye hard, but maybe your naivity made it a good thingbecause you just went did when most people who know how art is might nothave tried in terms of finances, because I know a lot of people. Youknow listen to this. The are also at the early stages and they're like howdo I spend my entire time focused on whatever it is developing softwaretrying to get my first users when you've got a family to Otenti ally deFeed Morgane for rent to pay for what situation? And how did you guys bothmanage that during their early stages? Well, I had I blew through about thirtygrand, which was all my savings at when I was like twenty five I've beenworking for six years. I guess it blew through that with the first company andthen when we sold that company we had to take consulting jobs to pay thebills, and so we were basically doing that for about sixty percent of thetime I would say: Ere we were doing consulting projects, and then we wereworking with a local group. Here in town and and then forty percent of thetime we were spending working on a wave and moving up forward, we both put athousand dollars into it up front, and that's it that's the only financialinvestment we put in, and I would say that in hindsight, looking all the wayback, I wish I had leverage my day job in a way and I jumped off the cliffbasically without a parachute, which is one way to do it and it did work out.So I wouldn't change anything, but I do wish. I was a little smarter in likeusing my day, job to basically fund my side projects until they became bigenough to wars like okay. Now it's time to roll from this thing to the next, Iguess we're still learning how to do...

...that with you know, selling a companyand then kind of transitioning into the new one. Again, I probably did those alittle bit too close together, I could have spaced it out would have been alittle easier, but it's hard to time things and you just got to do what youcan in the moment and slowly work your way forward. You know, I think thebiggest learning has just been playing the long game and not thinking so muchabout like Oh, my gosh. I have to have forty grand to hire some developertomorrow, rather than you know. What can I accomplish over the next year?What kind of accomplished over the next three to five years, because that's howlong this stuff takes? So no that exactly answers it, but atthat kind of work, that's where we were. It is funny I in these interviews Ioften find there's two different types of people: There's the burn, thebridges of off the cliff, as you said, type of person who just they needalmost the pressure of making this work for their financial freedom as well orthey're, just surviving, and then there's the completely cautious. Iworked in a job until I was more than a hundred percent. Confident that mycompany would replace or more than the income I was making, so it's rare forit to be carefully managed in that kind of fifty fifty kind of way. It's one ofthe other. I've been thinking a lot about fear lately, as far as it comesto entrepreneurship, and I think it's really what drives a lot of us to. Youknow we're fearful that the company is going to fail, we're fearful that youknow it's going to take too long or whatever it might be, and I found thatI've been the most effective in my entrepreneurship endeavors when I'm nothaving fear and I'm not worried about what the outcome is, but I'm justfollowing what I want to do and like working in the moment and reallyenjoying it and saying no. I want to work on this and I'm going to see whereit goes. I'm going to you know, keep some opportunities open and give itsome have some flexibility, but it's hard to manage that and you need tohave a little fear because you need to have some pressure to you know, get thecompany up and going you got to have some. You know incentive to go, makesales and get the business side going, but it's a tough balance, that's forsure yeah an you've gone through both sides at the sort of early days. whereI think it's sad to say fear is just survival. You know, will I pay for myyeah food and rent and family nurses now you've had an acquisition you'vehad an exit. You've got multiple companies that have succeeded. Yourfear is maybe a little bit of losing what you have, but I think I readmember in the acquisition story. Yeah. The sharing you did with with way part,not the only reason that part of the reason you sold was all your well bigchunk. o your net worth was in this one. Business E H, l, let's diversify alittle bit exit this one and but before we talk about that, I do want toconnect the dot. So you talk as the name of the Club House, tyle companyright, Yep Yep, so you discover from user feedback. They there wants to knowhow to make these social media audio, that Nick had created for promoting orallowing you talk users to promote with. Do you just switch, you talk off andthen dive into wave and launch a whole new business like how did thattransition happen? It was a few month process. We actually sold the codebaseto a group that had a live streaming company and they wanted to add someaudio components. So we actually found somebody to buy it the end of the dayit was in es on the dollar compared to what we put into it, especially if youkind of far time, but it was nice to actually you know, sell it and give itsomebody that can use it, but the Comino, the club house right yeah yeahthat would have been. I would have felt that would have been a tough one, toughtill to swallow. So there was a few mock process where we weretransitioning, that code base and all the tech to the buyers and then, at thesame time we were starting the marketing page and starting to lay thefoundation for what would become way. If and we actually remember, we startedit and we got a few customers within the first month or so, and the goal wasalways for it to pair mortgages. That was what nick was like. If we can builda side project that pays our mortgages like that, can start opening up, giveus some freedom to start thinking about other things and it just kept tickingup every month, you've five ten percent month over month growth, and you dothat for a couple o years. You look back and it's a lot more did a lot morethan we expected. Well tell me about that. So you know you started assass. Ican see you've got nick sitting there, making like the Beta version of thistool when you first got your first customers like. How did you even dothat? Where do they come from and it was it a case of them just going to avarious basic version of a website with a credit card and then a o the tool?How does it work? We learned our lesson from the first companies to Eli. Whatis the quickest easiest way that we can try to get customers for this and seeif people will pay for it and- and I even I'm honestly kind ofembarrassed to share this sometimes but nick and I and this nick is really good.I guess hackers. The term is really good at like putting pieces togetherquickly and kind of building VP's and we had a war press site that used thetheme and we use word. Press simple pay, I think, was the plug and I'm not sure.If that's around any more and people would subscribe and nothing wouldhappen, they would pay us and they would basically get an email that sentthem a url to an IP address that had the WEAP on it and there was no. We hadno authentication, there was no lawan,...

...there's no registration, it was likeyou pay US money, we give you a link and it goes with his IP address. Thatwould let people use the tool and it wouldn't save their settings oranything they would have to start over every time they use it and people paidus for it and we go use it and they loved it. Oh ow and is so funny thatlooking back people actually loved it. They were like. This is great I don'thave to log in. I don't have to give you in my any of my data. It's justlike it was the simplicity of it. People actually really enjoyed it. Thatwas the first version. We had ten customers on there before we actuallylike put it behind the domain and added a sign up page and things like that.Wow, it's so get O. I love it. You know it's a good way to put it yeah. Ihaven't heard someone go out with a Sass without like the log in function,because anyone could just share the link on use the tool right it would. Itwould have yeah, it was, you know, there's kind of the beauty of lookingback. We realized that nobody knew us, nobody cared about us and it was. Itwas actually an advantage because we could do those kind of things and takethose risks, and we weren't worried about what somebody was going to say ontwitter or somebody who's going to post it on Indi ackers, and we were going toget roasted or read it whatever. So we actually use that to our advantage andjust kind of I guess you call it kind of stealth mode and it allowed us tomove really fast. Where are those ten customers come from? Mostly, there area couple referrals from people we already knew. We had a lot of podcasters on our platform before so we had some of those, but it was mainly directemail. I would just email people and what I did was nick built me a nicelittle tool where I do two things. I would pull up twitter and I would lookthrough people that were promoting images for their episodes. That waskind of the new way to promote. Like show it off on social media and Nickbuilt me this little RS s search tool, so I could put in their podcast andwould go find their email in the RSSEEISS, and I would just send him anemail saying: Hey so you're, promoting your new episode. That image looksgreat. Have you ever thought about posting a clip on social media and oneout of ten people would be like no, but that sounds awesome. How do I do it andI just send them a link and get them started, so it was like it was.Definitely I had a sales background, so I was comfortable doing that andrealized that my big lesson and I'm trying to get back to this too, becauseI'm doing direct sales for turn key to get our first. Fifty customers, that'swhere our next goal is just short to the point: emails asking people forpermission to start a conversation. That's basically my goal when I'm doingdirect out reach, but yeah is the first I say the first fifty to a hundred.First, fifty customers were very manual and then I started moving the instardirect messaging because that's people were trying to promote their podcast onInstar, probably got to a hundred that way, and then that whole time we weredropping a lot of content, a lot of log content and then the content marketingstarted picking up. Okay, yeah. I know that that's a great evolution, I thinkI should clear up for just a few people might not quite understand what wavedoes so. It is about taking a chunk like a section of a podcast, much likeyou're listening to now making a visual representation of that. You guys hadten blates that look great. It just spat that out the audio the den plate,the transcript, I believe, possibly you yeah captains, Yep captions, and thenyou just upfloated to your social. In the way you go so, and I love the thedirect target of users who are ready posting to a social platform to promotetheir podcast. Like you, that is a customer target Bass. If you could, youknow you can't get any more target than that, so I'm actually doing a similarprocess for my company in Bucks time we go to twitter. Anyone who complainswhat happened too much email. I try and get in front of that's A. I have acompany that manages your email right now, quite as linear series, it closeto it, and it's amazing. You got to a hundred customers doing that, so itshows what just a hustling every day trying to find one at a time can do foryou. I'd love to talk more, though, about this transition to contentmarketing, because I'm hearing that more and more now from startups messreliance on paid advertising or press coverage. It's just produced consistentlog content which, coming from my background in the blocking space, Ilove hearing that and it seems to be paying dividends. So was that aconscious choice because you just were limited by budget or why did you chooseto focus on content like that organic co? Yeah? It was mostly because wedidn't have any budget. It was the one thing that I could just spend my timeand you know at that time. Our advantage was having time we had notime line. We, you know we had consulting gigs that were paying thebills and we had an open. You know run way of time to work with, and that wasthe most seemed like the most effective use of it, and it took about six monthsof writing. We write a blog post a week, a block posts every two weeks and justconsistently putting out content. I was no SOX pert. I just tried to writecontent that I thought people would podcast. Ers were to ask about and mostexample of a piece of content. It did well our most highest. Performing blogpost of all time is nine interview, questions to ask as a podcast er, sopod casters that are wanting to know like what are some new podcastquestions that I can ask ask my guess. That's a big one is going to Googlehthat now for this podcast, so I can let...

...nine questions ask you yeah and theother ones. A lot were like just how do I promote my podcast on Instar? Howdoes that work? What are the rules? What size is this does the imag to beso there's a lot of how to videos early on because podcast ers are. We learnthat they're just very resourceful and love to do things ourselves and theylove. You know trying to learn new things. They can do better, so it justworked out really well that, and we were early to that was helpful. Therewasn't many people talking about it back then. So, like two hundredthousand podcast, I think when we started I guessing that was your job.You were the content, Guy, Yep, yeah, okay, so take us forward. You get to ahundred users enough to cover your mortgages at that point in terms ofrevenue. Oh No, it took us. I always forget it was such a long process. Imean, I think it took us a year and a half to get to ten K M R R. I mean wewere doing like seven dollars, average revenue peruser, so I mean that was Imean that was about a thousand in Rri guess at that point close to it, so ittook us a while. I think I almost quit at six a nine k more reading, yourstory. You were going to quit at one point because you were like this: Is itwe're not getting to ten k? We had to either quit or do something differentyeah just felt like it was never going to it just felt like it was going totake so long, and I didn't realize a couple things I didn't realize it wasline or growth, but you know it was a five percent month over a month, growth-and I just didn't understand how our word of mouth marketing was working. Itwas working a lot better than I thought and as our customer base grew and morepeople were sharing these videos. The more people were finding out about us,so our growth always stayed around that five between five and ten percent monthover a month, and that feels like nothing for a year and a half, but it'skind of a snowball effect almost that at a certain point you don't realize it,but a certain point: You're, like Oh man. This is five percent month of amonth. Growth at thirty K starts to become really interesting, so we justhad to get kind of past that inflection point to where the market really knewwho we were and the inbound marketing engine was really starting to to work,and then it just kept kept going. I can imagine line five percent when you'vegot twenty uses, is one new user, but five. Yet when you got a thousand, youknow s fifty. So it's a big difference. Okay, so you made it through that partperiod where you weren't sure whether you'd be able to live off this business.You finally reach ten thousand a month. How does your mind set change aboutyour future with this business? At that point, the pressure comes off a littlebit. Definitely, but I don't think it really changed much. We were just so. Ithink, back to. I really tried to recreate that moment that we were inbecause we didn't really change any we're justso in the moment and thinking about the business and growing it and having fun,and you know we were celebrating all these milestones that were happeningand just kept pushing it forward, and I don't think the mind set really shifted.There was no moment where we were like. Oh now that we have x number dollarsnow we can go do this or we can hire this person. This we had always beenprioritize to you know to have a lean, recurring revenue model. The goal is tobuild a company that didn't need those things so that it could run on its own.We assumed it was going to be kind of a you know, side project that we wantedto generate passive income, so we were always building it in the way where wedidn't need to do those things. So it was really just keep doubling down onwhat works is kind of the. Where we were it's a good question. I haven'treally thought about it too much. I mean I ask it because for a lot ofpeople, ten thousand a month is like this holy grail. I'm free. I don't needa job. I you know we can survive for so of and it's a place where a little bitof a Halloa moment. At the same time, I think everyone else so realizes it'sjust another step towards continuing down the same path. So how do you gofrom ten thousand two hundred thousand a month? You said it's just more of thesame, but obviously you call my customers. You've got to build. A teamis a little different from those two points. So what changed? For you guysyeah one big thing was you learning how to outsource things that were taking upa lot of our time or things that we didn't really enjoy doing so? Thecontent marketing was something that I don't love writing. It was something Ijust did because it's what was needed early on and now that that sort ofworking we hired a content team to actually write. These will startproducing more content. Where else can we put content with forums or websitelike cor or whatever it may be, and you know start that's kind of what itlooked like for like okay well running on our block works. Let's do more ofthat and then, where else can we post this stuff the same thing with socialmedia? We weren't very good at so we're not really good at a lot of things. Wejust get good enough at it to see if it works and then try to prehend somebodythat really knows that and take it on. That's how I look at our job. Our jobis to figure out what works and what doesn't and then get the right peoplein place to scale it up and to do more of it. Paid advertising was one thatworked pretty well too. We were really early to that. So we have low cost perclick on Edwards and face book, and we found that you know. Meeting peoplewere like our whole point was to help people share things: Videos on socialmedia so w when we would promote a...

...video advertisement and show peoplethat way that really worked again. Something that I just tested out andwords and face book were the are the two places that we really worked onthat and then bringing someone in there to actually write the copy startpumping more money into ads. I will say: That's one thing that we probablyreally went heavy on for two years was paid ads and that we reinvested a lotof our of our revenue into that Kay nice. Now I just want to clarify: Didsubtitle or duplicate show up at any point in time for this, for this comesafter a wave yeah? No, I did so. I Zubieta ly showed up in two thousandand eight, so we would have been running for two years and it was wewere at that point. I think we were probably doing like thirty K, somethinglike that. So it was like we felt good about it. It was growing and I startedhaving some time Freda, because we were you know outscourings things and Zebtitle came about because our customers kept asking us to add captions on thesevideos. Any social medio ideas that wave was creating and every time wescoped out the project. It was going to be so expensive and we are verydiligent about prioritize features that are going to grow the business, notjust because people are asking for them, but what's the time going to go into it?And what's our return going to be really early on we're really seriousabout that and it was hard to quantify like. Is this actually going to bringus more customers? Or is this just something that you know kind of a coolthing that people want, and so we kept putting it off putting it off becauseit was going to be so expensive and then we find I got the idea that likewell look if we're going to drop twenty K or whatever it might be, to get thiswhole system built out. Can it exist on its own and then integrate interay ofempower it, because if we're going to build this thing for our l, you knowvery specific style of audiogram video. Can it just do this for any video andnick at the time he just had a kid and was working a full time job? He was afounding engineer at another company that was focused on Crypto, while he hehad built wave and then then you're asking to create a transcription engineas well. Are you yeah exactly? He was just saying man, you know he's had justtaken on too much risk at that time, and but we had an engineer that weworked with it, our consulting firm name, J that he was he's been. He wasreally interested in on Meneurs Ip and him Nickin had known each other reallywell and he was like won't. You just go build this with J and then integrate it,and these two can you know, kind of be sister companies. Basically, so theyare separate businesses separate cap tables, but would they integrate reallywell with one another and played very nicely? So how did Zumtime kind of growif you come assuming you were in there building way. Writing all this content.You now trying to get that to the next level. Is there a different team inplace for up title, doing everything there from day one or it was kind ofthe same set up as nick and I had, but it was myself and J, and that was myfirst lesson in that the same playbook doesn't work for every company I waslike this is make so much sense. It's going to be just like way. If I canjust do the content, marketing and people are going to want to use it andwe'll just do these exact same thing and it was very different. I did directout reach early on that did work to get people to use it interesting enoughthat we kind of got early in on linked in video linkean. Video came out thatsame summer, and so we reached out to Linkin influencers and these people aremore be to be, and they do they really care about their the way that they'representing themselves on social media, and so we got in early with some ofthose influencers and they used it and would tell people about it, and itreally grew. That's probably how we got our first hundred customers or so andthen paid advertising work really well for Zeb title as well. You still own asa polly. Can you share like what your monthly run rate is with that come yeahyeah? It's doing, I think a hundred and Twelve K M R R. So it's it's reallycome along. It's been three years now and it got a really healthy profitmargin, it's more expensive to run from the text side because of these videossometimes can be for ka videos, and things can be really engineeringintensive. But yes, it's a great business and we've got a big newversion. Three coming out. Some new features dropping as the people aremaking transition to short vertical videos. So we've got a lot of supportcoming out for that, but yeah it's still going. Can you clarify exactly?How does it work, though? So, like I have a video I recorded? Well, you knewyou s plain it you're in do better job than I will yeah. So it takes yourvideo and it automatically transcribes it, which then itself is not that big,that you know there's a lot of things that will do that out there, but whatit allows you to do is to really edit your transcript very quickly gives youa nice note pad and tools to clean up the transcript, because it's nevergoing to be a hundred percent accurate and then it gives you tool to designyour captions. That's the other big thing that we learn is people.Sometimes they have a logo on the video where it's a vertical video and theywant their cassion to show up in certain ways, and then it also makes itreally easy well to go into. It started out as just video capturing that's whatit did. It helped you design video capturing and it was a paper use model,so you would buy a pack of minutes and it would get charged as she used it andwe would kept getting like seven. Eight, MR O t wasn't recurring revenue at thattime at seven to ten k a month, but it...

...was never predictable, so we couldnever properly invest in the business and it just wasn't really sticky.People would come in and use it for a video, and then they wouldn't come backfor the next one and that's when we made the transition to like hey allthese people are transcribing videos for social media. Let's help them doother things to get their video ready for Social Meis. So the big one was resizing, just making sure that your video was sized properly for snap chatversus face book versus twitter and a trimming clipping making sure thatyou're picking you know if you wanted to trim it down to a smaller portion.Things like that, so it's mainly around just getting the video ready for socialmedia, so it really pops and that's all engineering base like it's not like anoutsource service. It's the correct, doing everything yea it's a tool thathelps video creaters. Do these things? Okay, a so everything's automated, likeai transcription power you're going to back in as well an cool, so wow. It'sinteresting to think about wave and subtitle they're very similar. Now isthat we sort of talk about them. They're both m about creating socialmedia content. They both had transcriptions. They both allow you tocontrol elements of the the social content that that matter, logo size setone positioning is purely this is for podcast ers to do that. Yeah. The otherone's positioning is. This is for a video, and it sounds like linked invideo was kind of like the starting point. It's easy to have seen those twothings be the same company really like you could have turned wave into. Thisis- and I asked this question too because in my mind, as an entrepreneur-and I heard many entrees share Simla story as soon as you are in thetrenches with one company- and you said you kind of starts up title when you'redoing about thirty thousand monthly run mate with wave to then start anentirely new company to me, it's like well now you're taking some of thatenergy that might have been creating the LAMENTU behind wave and you're,putting it behind sub title, which has no attraction yet. So it sounds alittle bit like the classic mistake of Multiple Focus. At the same time, I'mtalking to you now when you've sold wave when it was already doing twomillion a year, is up pedals on the way to that number. It's well over amillion a year. So you really made it work yeah. But do you feel like if youwere talking to someone else? Would you recommend to them? You do what you didor why I choose to have two separate companies, and that could be one as alot of things there that I want to understand. You're thinking, yeah. Ithink we have realized in looking back. I think a lot of people build business.I think it's a mistake that octopedes make quite often it is that they buildbusinesses that don't fit their personality and stricks, and we foundovertime that we are really good. At focusing on a specific group of peopleand solving, you know a specific problem that they have and we have justreally focused on doing that. It would have been easier and we thought a lotof different ways that a wave could go. We've thought about taking into thehosting and like being the podcast host. That then has the best marketing tools.We've thought about turning it into a place where content can be stored andsaved, but we always remind ourselves that what we're good at is buildingniche software businesses and any time that we get the scope to expand it atsome point. We know that like this is just not our strength, because then youstart, you know if we were really trying to build. Probably what descriptis probably the best analogy in our space that they do everything it's likepodcast, editing and video creation. They kind of they do a lot of differentthings. I think you know building a big company like that. That has a lot ofdifferent focuses. Then you have to be good at hiring. You have to be a goodat organizational processes and you know running an efficient team thingslike that, and those are just not the things that we do. So we try to buildbusinesses that are lean and can be self sufficient, and also we love thecreative process building some US probably too much. Sometimes we're likewe love it so much that we're always ready to start the next new thing. Notso much see how far we can take the current thing, so I don't know ifthere's a well, it turned out to be a pretty good, a good call, but I don'tknow if it was the best but yeah that was kind of the thought mind it yeah,and I appreciate you sharing that because you do highlight at the end ofthe day. This is a decision by the people in charge of what they're doingand everyone's got a different goal of different motivation. So sure I couldassess this and say: Wow wave would be a much bigger company if you would bothspend all your time on it. You everything for it all your marketingsure, and if that was your only goal- and you know mission accomplished but,like you said you like this creative start up new idea of phase more thanthe growing a team, because it's true as a founder, you kind of you step awayfrom the the day to day creative side and start becoming more of a hiringperson, team manager, role, which is not as much fun when you're you know,selling something new and it's fresh and you're the one out there trying topush it. So I can see why I made that choice, but everyone's different, ofcourse. So you take us for then so you've got and actually need to timesnap this too, because I'm getting a little confused. So you talk was like atwo thousand and parly two sand is that...

...when that food was thousand and fifteendown, fifteen was Outa, because you mentioned early when winded wave startwhat year two thousand and sixteen so a little. It was like a basically like ayear. We probably started on two thousand and fourteen work on Utah, butwe really spent that whole year of full time on it in two thousand and fifteenand then two thousand and sixteen started wave and then two thousand andeighteen started sub title: Okay and the last one of this four companies. Iknow we'll talk about turnkey to that's your current line of, but duplicate didthat come in this journey as well, or is that that came in last summer, asduring it was during Ovid, we were all Lockton in quarantine and we're like.Let's start another company, and of course that was yeah. That was probablylooking back. We just didn't have the time. It was not a good time to startit because we, but it was, it was a tool. We were basically trying to workon wavings up title and playing off of that is building more of a content,repurposing tool that could kind of do what wave ends up. How does and someother things and kind of bundle a lot of tools together into one, and I thinkthe scope just kind of ran away from us. We haven't been working on that lately.It does a couple hundred m rr and it's got some customers that, like it, theyuse, they use the transcription tool and format the transcription into ablock post. So yeah. We started that one last summer and then churn key wassomething we had been building internally for wavings up title, andthen we really decided to say that he, let's start putting our focus intotrunke just in September of last year. Okay, we we will leave the acquisitionof wave until we talk about churn, because I know trunky was an internallydeveloped tool before you came a standalone company which is now yourmain focus. So how does turn key evolve? And this is funny because turnkey isthe first company. It sounds like that. You had an idea for within one companyway sounds like it was like the starting point for a lot of companies,or maybe even you talk really, but in a wave is kind of where you start gettingsome traction. You hit some problems, then you think we have to solve thishey. Let's start a new business right and now drunkie, I know we're going totell me the same story. It's like we had this problem and wave and Zubiathis could be a business. We should start one, but this time you didn'tstart it while doing the other one, you said, maybe will sell wave. So can youmaybe first of all tell us what Trinke is within way when it first became anidea and then we'll connect that to the selling of wave story? Yeah, ourbiggest problem with wave has always been turned and it's been high churnedpodcast ers they do seasons, they take time off. Circumstances happen. Theycan't, you know they want to cancel the ten dollar charge were kind of thefirst thing that a podcast er cancels when they're trying to kind of downsize their expenses. So we were always at like twelve to fourteen percentchurn and we knew that that was what was preventing us from you know, reallykind of getting to the next level of growth, and we tried everything wehired consultants. We spent ten to thousands of dollars on consultants andon boarding tools and analytics and prediction tools and all those thingsreally a lot of the things do help, but the one place where we saw consistent,Measurable Return on investment with turn was optimize. Our cancellationflow so that all started. When we offered pausing, we noticed thatpodcast RS will just take two months off a lot of em do seasons and insteadof them canceling and hoping that they come back, we would say: Hey, you know,sit at canceling, we'll keep all your data will keep all your video, safe andjust pause for two months and it'll reactivate with end an email when it reactivates and we started cutting term by twelve percent right away byoffering pauses, and then we thought well. If people want to post me, we canjust offer a discount, and this is nothing new. This is you know if youcall your cable company up and try to cancel. This is kind of the same playbook that a lot of bigger businesses is used to try to keep you around. Giveyou incentives to keep your subscription going, so we really justtaking that, and you know putting it into an automated flow that the usercan go through and it'll. Allow them to choose why they're, canceling and basedon why they cancel we pitch them a specific offer, and once we got thediscounts, we also added technical support so that, if somebody'scanceling because of a feature or something that's not working instead ofthem canceling, we get them connected with a customer support person rightaway. That saves probably a dozen customers a month. So when we put allthose things in place, we cut our turn down by twenty five percent and thenall of a sudden, our growth ceiling opens up because we're not losing asmany customers. So it really it had such an impact on our business that wewere like. We have to try to sell this other SASS companies, because we canreally make a big difference, but we definitely took our time building itinto wave first and getting making sure that we were learning as much as wecould building it for ourselves before pulling it out and and turning it intoa product m yeah. I got a question about that because I had a good look ata churn key website and I'm like this is smart. I had some subscriptionbusinesses before and I know like a lot of the churn process. Like you saidwhen they're asking to leave or cancel, we rely a human being my customsupporttive person to essentially...

...dynamic the answer and offer on the fly,some kind of special discount or a pause, a membership. All things you'resaying to try and keep them an active member and it works. It definitely doeswork, but then I'm thinking, you've, obviously satified that you turn theother to software. But I couldn't quite get my head around. Like your DashBoard looks great and I recommend everyone, Cocheco turn Keco, but I waslike okay. So this as a dash board for seeing the stats on my churn- and Ithought you got like a survey type mechanism- I believe, like a questionhere of some source but yeah. It seems like a little bit like an octopussoftware. There's all these different kind of almost tools you can use to tryand reduce the churn. An you. Maybe just explain how, because I can see howyou built this for yourselves. You obviously said: Hey, let's try this! Oh,let's build that into the or on software. So how does that cometogether and maybe what is the most important peace in terms of a softwarepart of this solution, so Chirky? Actually in beds? It's a jobscript in bed that you put within your Sass at and there's a little bit ofserver side Code that connects churn key to stripe, so it can facilitate e e.These questions and the mean the biggest part of turnkey is the flowitself. So when the imbed POPs up it allows you to decide what you want toask and what you want to offer at what yes doing. I Click canceled just toClare, exactly okay, so I'm in wave I want to cancel. I could cancel button,shrinky POPs up, basically a ORCAS IT takes over and it turns into it's amotel that pops up and it asks questions and says. Well, you know whydo you want to cancel? Actually the first thing that we do a wave isbecause the pausing is so successful. That's the first thing that we chooseto offer up, and then we ask them why they're canceling and then it can basedon why they're canceling you can set up each one to an offer and then discountsor hidden plans is another one. That's really interesting of like plans thatyou don't put on your website, but that you were willing to offer customers tostick around so example would be, if you know a podcast post. If somebodywants to cancel it's like well, why not pay five dollars a month and we'll keepyour you know podcast going as opposed to taking it down and then if thecustomer accepts a deal or cancels whatever the end result is it shows upin a sessions. Result within the Turky Ashport, so it's kind of two part oneis the in bed: that's actually user facing and then the DASH borders Covin.We caught like our no code dash board where you can make the changes and seewhat's working and what's not working. I can see why I mean this is a littlemore complicated, a field than say what you've done with wave and yeah. It's othe title like it's. It's a little bit of human interaction, intelligence,you're, going to start to have to manage and turn it software, but I dolove it. I think you guys, I can see what you're excited about to thechallenge of doing that, which is probably not as well serviced today.You know you're in a bit of a unique nice so but before we- and I know thatspun off as the company- maybe we can do the chronology or so you're runningwave you've hit a hundred thousand a month, a hundred and fifty thousand amonth. I'm assuming part of that growth is because you got on top of churnthanks to your general version of turn key. Definitely, how far did you gobefore you decide to sell? Was it two hundred thousand a month, monthy runright or we were at a little over hondred and forty, so we decided tosell. We were probably at one thirty. I would guess one twenty five we'velooked at acquisition offers over the years and every time just didn't feellike it was. It was the right time we felt there was. You know a lot ofpotential in front of us, but with wave we really got to a point. This kind ofgoes back to the conversation we were having about. You know why not expandthe scope of wave and start doing other things, and any time we looked at thatit just didn't, feel like we were the right people to do it, and even so muchlike going back to the turn discussion wave just became big enough to wear.You know having somebody thinking about charm for four months really made a bigimpact like a half. A percentage of turn makes a big impact on the businessand I really needed people that were more scientific. That could really thatenjoy diving, deep down these really specific problems and solving themwhere it's not our natural tendency. We really like to think about new thingsand like what can we build next, and so I just it started to feel the firstreal reason. Was It really felt like we've needed a new set of operationalteam members, so that's kind of where we got started and then the more wethought about it. We do realize how much risk we had tied up in thebusiness compared to you know our net worth and then at that point you startthinking of Black Swan events like Oh gosh. What I you know. Who knows whatcould happen, and so it just feel like the right time to take the risk off thetable and the other thing is: We knew what we wanted it. We were like. Weknow we want to work on turn key. So let's do this and I can free up ourtime and we can really focus on it and to be fair for you. You Got Zumtimerunning doing a hundred grand a month to so which actually leads me to aquestion. I'm curious, okay, you're feeling like a lot Er not worth, istied in your capitals inside wave. You want to exit get some of that out butlike were you guys, both earning a salary from way you taking one fromsubtilize? How much were you building capital from just Caso Yeah Yeah? Wewere. We were distributing all of our profits with wave to the partners so,and we have been doing that for about...

...two years, probably and Yeah Zep titlewas was paying me as well, so it was less about. We didn't need it, but itjust felt like getting. The cash advance basically is desistant. Whatyou're doing is you're saying you know on the next three years up front andthen I'm done for the most part and as opposed to taking it over the nextthree years and now the other thing that changes we both have families andwe both have houses. You know we want to need bigger houses for these kids,and so that was another part of it to were just in a time in life where itwas. It felt like the right thing to do and guess on the video of this I'mlooking at the House that way you bought right. Is that fair to say no, Iwere no we're still in the same. That's actually hopefully coming in the future,but okay, yeah is nice on yeah. Okay, so, and I can understand thatthere's always conflicting motivations or maybe not conflicting, but you wantmoney. You want to focus something new, those things Bein up equal, you getboth of them. When you exit so okay take us forward, then you decide toactually make a sale. There had a way. If you want to leave that company therehad been prior offers. As I know, and the start we mentioned this, the guysfrom com, capital, David and Marty were the eventual winners of the deal withyou. I got the impression know that you were kind of picking and choosing frommultiple buyers. You had you had unctions a lot. Multiple suitors, canyou explain your decision making process there and was it just about whohad the highest offer? No, there was a couple different factors of. When isthe decision. The first decision point we had was: do we want to sign a brokernot to have somebody, take us packages up and take us to the market and geteven more suitors but, of course, you're givin up ten percent isssue withmost brokerages, and we had found one that we really liked, and we wereplanning on doing that. But then right around December we got five or six inbound emails from different acquisition groups that kind of specialize inbuying SASS companies like ours. Why is that suddenly happen? Do you think,like that? I think it's just hard these. It's really hard to find. You know inactors, isn't it it's all, so I hackit right yeah pretty much yeah. Well, Ithink it's hard to find investments these days that have safe fields andSASS. Businesses are great, they're, very lean and profitable, and so Ithink investors are starting to get just more interested in and now thesefirms are popping up, and you know there have lps basically and then theygo by these companies and put them together. So it's almost like a newflavor of private equity, but just focus on niche boot straps asscompanies. So the timing was good where we had multiple of those groups emailsand we decided well, let's just dude. Let's take these five six and do ourown due diligence and start the process and see what happens and if it doesn'twork then we'll sign a broker in February or March, because in the pastwe had known that we knew that people are looking at net profit, trailingtwelve months, basically of IBATA and with a multiple tie to it. So we coulddo the math and figure out kind of where we were going to be a you know,each quarter. We would look and be like okay, should we do it now, or should wewait, but we got to the range that we wanted and we were at the range, and sowe started the process with those five groups, and it was a lot of work. Imean we, so we basically sourced negotiated and closed the deal all inour own. We paid seven grand and legal fees to actually just help us with thecontract itself, and now I know why brokers are valuable, because that wasa ton of work, but basically we just kicked off. We had five differentconversations going where we would do you know introductions do diligence. Weput together just a big data room where you know with all of our revenue,metrics or analytics product metrics, all those things, and basically we knewwe wanted a Sassprilly in calm capital. There was a lot of great ones. It wasactually it was a hard choice, but come had the best deal financially and theyalso had a little different approach where they were going to work with us.We were still going to be getting incentive over three years, so we gotmost of the deal out front, but there is incentive, there's an incentive forus to be involved as in advisors and help them grow for the next three. Isthat like an earn out, or just like your yes, pretty much yeah, pretty myeah, just er now yeah and for those listening? If you want to hear Davidand Marty's side from calm capital, the CO founders there, we didn't actuallytalk a lot about your wave acquisition. Specifically, they did talk about someof their previous acquisitions, but you can certainly hear their philosophyabout being calm and peaceful and controlling the experience for you as afounder and your o founders as well. In episode to invest the capitals they cango, have listened to that one I just recorded and published. I had aquestion that surface when you're talking about the valuation, so yousaid: net profit after tax, one of the things that with the company like yours,you could choose to plough all the profit or cash into growth like buyingmore ads, creating more content or you could pull back on that at the point.You're ready to sell to make that number bigger. So you can get a biggerby out like how how you factor that in with with your sale, we got to a point.I think it was just the stage of the companywhere we were starting to getdiminishing returns on a lot of the...

...functions that we were doing like wekind of tapped out paid advertising. You know the more money we put in there.We weren't necessarily getting the same return back. I think we had kind offound the sweet spot there and it really felt like the company needed tomove to the next phase of actual product development and offerings ingeneral, so they didn't make sense for us to reinvest in the same things wewere doing because we kind of felt like we had you know, started hitting apoint. Where was time for something new, they had some great ideas on way topoint O. Basically, what is wave going to become? How is it going to helppodcast ers in other ways, and that was part of the Evian process as well? Itwas like, Oh these guys have you know, not only do they want to buy it andtake care of it, but they actually want to grow it significantly and that'swhat ultimately we want want to happen. We want wave to, you, know, becomesomething bigger and they were thinking about growth in the same way that wewould have if we felt like we were the right people to do it, nice, yeah, okay,so, but just to clarify the money side. If you know you're doing, let's say twomillion a year at the time you just finally made this deal, your profitmargin net could be twenty five percent half a million a year or could be amillion or even more depending I don't know how big your salary costs are forthe company and so on, but it definitely fluctuates. I know formyself running a company where it's like how many team members do we havethis month. How much will we decide to spend on anything from advertising todevelopment and so on, and it feels like it's hard to just come, say: okay.Well this year we did a hundred thousand. Last year we did six hundredthousand. It could be very different, as I guess what I'm saying so, when youhave a buyer and multiple buyers in this case they maybe you're asking thewrong person. I should be asking the buyers, but in their minds, are theythinking? If we just keep it running as it is, we know the founders were takingthis much capital as Imites or salary whatever it is, so they'll be thatmoney it'll be roughly this amount of net profit. Obviously well, we candecide how to play with it. That's how we're doing the value for what we'REGOING TO PAY YEAH! That's pretty much. I don't know the exact numbers thatthey have in mind, but I think the general approach and the way theyexplain it well, was that we were always running at sixty five to seventypercent profit margins, which was really W h. We really optimize for that.Maybe I e a maybe at the expensive growth we could have been doing. Youknow trying other things, but they want to bring it down to about fifty andthen so they're, basically looking at it say: okay, we're going to buy thisand we're in t there's his twenty percent difference in margin that we'regoing to turn that into growth and start putting that into you know higherpeople and kind of start getting systems in place to get to that nextnext level. So they did, they use the fifty percent number when making anoffer to you. That was more just like their plan as far that other yeah, asfar as their plan going forward, okay, yea so they're still looking at it withyour number sixty five, seventy percent yea a a dition as opposed to what theirmention make sense: okay, yeah and yeah. It's a it's on crazy. How common itsort of is to take a profit multiply by three to five and that's war, offerwe're going to make it to you and that's pretty much whatever, but that'swhat everybody did. It was either trailing twelve months, Evita or steseller discretionary earning, which means you could you know, say somethings: weren't specifically used for running the running or growing thebusiness and those could be cut, and then everybody the market, reallyseemed to be somewhere between two three to six times. Multiples is kindof what what we were saying is really interesting to learn, and you knowlisten to how these different groups come to that specific valuation andwhat they try to do is really interesting. We learn a hot must be funto see the term she come in with the offer right us to see what thedifferent offers were from the different yeah yeah was yeah. It wasalways this big anticipation like Oh man. What are we going to? What are wegoing to see? Everybody was fairly close, so a lot of it came down toculture fit to is like you know, who we're going to be working with thesepeople for a long time, David Marty from Colmar they're in North Carolina.That was also a big component for us as their local. We felt like we like theidea of our business staying in the Carolinas and they hired a Jeff. Thenew CEO of wave is in North Carolina as well, so we're all kind of close andwe've gotten together and just really like each other. It's just a lot. A lotof it was a good culture, fit nice, okay Y A! I could see that all rightwell, MI, start heading towards the end of the show here, Bart its been a greatjourney. I appreciate all the the detail of all these steps, like veryclear in my mind, now what you, what you created over the years is ahomework yeah I mean I'm most impressed that you could create is up title whileyou're building a wave to me that that is really impressive. You know thatit's kind of like breaking the rules, but you made it made it happen and it'sexciting to have two projects that are, you know both growing turn. Key,obviously, is your current focus. It does sound like it's early days, you'retalking about getting your first fifty customers earlier in the show so you'reout there doing. That is there anything you want to share about turn key andmaybe even like, what's different with this new SASS compared to all the otherones are cling to all this experience. Well, that's the the everything'sdifferent. This is our first B to be Sass, the first company, all the othercompanies. I don't know who coin this term, but we say pro somers they're,not it's not be to see these Otho Pod,...

...casters or pro somers. A lot of themare trying to make this their full time. They're in the process of you, know,moving towards more B to be, but it's totally different. Everything isdifferent. We have to think about implementation, Tom Lines. How do weactually take somebody through the sales process and get them implemented?There's multiple people involved from the there's. Usually a founder were incontact with, and then they have engineers that are actuallyimplementing it, where, as before, we're just trying to drive people to alanding page and convert a small percentage. Now it's very hands onwhere we need to it's something that businesses need to think about. How dothey want to implement it? What offers do they want to deliver? So there'sthis consultive component as well. So I say it's been a it's been a bit of achallenge for us to transition to the B to be mindst and all these differentthings we're trying to kind of the same thing with Zepho we're trying to use alot of the same play books from the other companies and realizing thatthey're not working like content marketings, not really driving much ofa difference for us with Curkey so, but we're moving into much more of a salesdriven model which is fun for me to dust off. My old sales experience, soit's been different yeah be to be is, is very different. I think a lot oftimes. I was thinking about this. The other day the I think there was a common suggestionto fount SASS founders that they should start be to be there like. You need todo be to be there's less churn, it's higher prices, which is true, and Ithink, a lot of people almost default to that. But there it's such adifferent business like it takes a different skill set. You need to beable to either navigate organizations to do be to be with TC presumers you'remore in the you know, creative process of actually building the product, sothey're very different. I think again, it's just important to think about yourpersonality. What you're good at what your strengths and and try to you knowbuild businesses that leverages those as opposed to just you know, doing whatpeople tell you to do yeah and it be interesting to see how you guys go. Youknow, let's US talk in five years and see where Orthur, kids and you're likeyou're right. You you've got a different, somewhat different, somewhatsimilar. I think about what you personally have been doing. You've beencreating content, you've been doing direct approach and I might get theinitial interest possibly but, like you said, there's going to be like a moreof a discovery learning. How does this tool ward a kind of process, but youdefinitely hitting on a major issue that is right for building some kind ofsoftware solution around. So that's fun. It's also interesting that timing hasbecome such an important thing that their customers, timing of when theywant to implement Jerkey because most people, the first couple of years,their company they're all focused on growth, because you have to do that.You have to get the business up and going and it's hard for them to focuson turn in the early days. But then there's this moment when growth startsplateau a little bit, it's like all of a sudden turn becomes a problem. Soit's we have to build relationships with these companies so that when thattime happens, we're ready to you know we're there and top of mind for them.So that's kind of a different problem to where, before a lot of things thatwe were doing were direct response where people find us because they needus as opposed to now, people are finding out about us, maybe before theyneed us or at the bad time. So that's been an interesting problem to solve aswell as how do we use start relationships and stay top of mind whenthat moment happens right? It's funny. I was thinking this could be a companywhere your own churn will not be nearly as high it's is it yeah we rite wouldtrunk were really starting to figure out who our ideal customers are likethe persones of the businesses that really need Cherky and curkey would notbe a good customer for us, because the churns we haven't had anybody churn yetyeah. I can't imagine you get it's gonna be so low, because yeah you'retalking a customer base. That's, like you, said the they're they're bigthey're succeeding. It's about. You know killing off the park that it's notworking as well, so they're going to keep paying for it once they see it.Working they're, big enough, they're not going to get like turn it off oversummer. Like you said, it's a yeah, it's kind of an irony of the business.Yes, it's interesting, it just goes back to it's so important when you'restarting a company to not have too many assumptions like have some bigassumptions that you go try to validate and let the market tell you what itneeds. We all that was kind of the big thing that we've had to retellourselves like. Yes, we built this for ourselves, but we need to figure outwho our ideal customers are. They might be different than us and they're goingto want different things than we've had so we kind of had this to do form uptransition period of going from. You know our selves as customers to who isour customer. How do we find those people and get them activated and it'sbeen much more much more involved? All of our cost are an customer acquisitionwhere, with other businesses is opposite, is like easy to acquirecustomers with premium tools, but all of our costs were in to trying to holdthose customers over long periods of time. So it's been a big mental shiftfor us and having to relearn some old skills and learn new ones. So, butthat's why we love doing this? It's well. That's your favorite part of thestart out right. It's the creative there's, a place book. We wouldn't wantto do it. It'd be boring, it'd be like well, you know, yeah we're excitedabout Ye got pretty much. I think will be the last question. Maybe second,last really for you and more of a...

...vested capital type question here: Bard,it's okay, so I know from the store you shared. Clearly, your greatest sourceof capital, making money over the last five six years has been from startups.These tech startups- and I say the exit ive wave is very likely be the biggestyou know, source of income you've had. Is there any other? Have you beeninvesting, but you know other types of ways of making money that we haven'treally talked about like outside of startups yeah. I do I do a lot ofinvesting in stocks and Crypto is generally, where I'm doing most of myinvesting all that is very long term. It's what I do to try to offset my veryrisky day. Job is to invest in things that have. I have a rule where, if Idon't have enough conviction to hold something for five years withouttouching it, I don't buy it. So I do a lot of like long term investing instocks and crypto. I haven't done anything. I'm definitely interested inlike property management, real estate, things like that I'd love to have aphysical business one day. I think it would be fun to just have something Ican go to or put my you know, actually touch and hold like a tall horse'sbusiness, maybe go back yeah. Maybe I get back into the. I got a sister inthe Horse Horse Industry, so maybe I can find something there, but yeah, butno, it's been mostly mostly tech, startups and then long long view,investments. Okay, it's funny. You say those are the those are not risky.Those are pretty wild lately. So yeah, it's been tough. It's reallyinteresting, I'm really interested in the technology to, and it's really hardto look at that space with a five year plus time horizon. So I'm trying tofollow that same rule, and it turns into it's hard to see through the noiseof, if you know, what's trading, what's just done by traders and what'sactually you know, value investing which is kind of hard to apply there,but it's fun to think about. Are you going for like the just the mainstreamon? You know the big coins and the etherium and the apples and the Amazon?Are you a little bit more obscure and more niche both I I'm trying to come upwith kind of a portfolio location of a certain percentage, kind of the mainmain stays, and then I do like to you know, throw a little bit. I found itinvesting in the new, like all coins that are that are news, have a fun wayto start learning about them. Just to you know, put a little bit here andthere and the other thing I've been trying to follow. Also is don't investin things that you don't understand. It's really easy to. You now see someblood post and something that sounds cool and you know one to invest in it,but try to force myself like now. You need to go. Do Research and learn aboutthis for investing, but it can give us an example. What's one of your allcoins, you become a a knowledgeable person about I'm really interested inlike distributed computing like this concept of like, instead of having touse aws and a centralized like CD N, for example, like this idea ofdistributing the resources, and one of them anchor is a really interesting.One is kind of the most impressive one that I found so things like that hasbeen really interesting, just trying to learn more about how it works, how it'sgoing to how it's going to work and then how is it going to actually startgetting large adoption? It's kind of the tough part about it. Okay, cool notlike to hear the that little little behind the scenes of what you do withthe money once you start making it because people often you know, I hearabout the fun stuff. The lambikin is the property they might buy, but at theend of the day, it's really just about putting it into some other asset right.That's what most people do with what the capital they make so yeah. It waskind of an interesting learning of the acquisition was like once your companyis acquired, and you have you know, you're trading, all that risk forcapital. You have to do something with it. You can't just let it sit there. Iguess you could, but that's risky as well. Just have all sit in one place,so that's definitely something I wouldn't prepared for and something I'mstill learning more about. Did you do any kind of big sparges that when thatmoney hit the back account, was there a toy or anything you bought for fun? Nope, not really still just kind ofnothing, nothing's really changed a much yeah still yeah still in the work, somestill I'm shop. Okay, Awesome! Well, BARN! I appreciate the time and thestory. I don't know where you want to send people to more about what you do.We mentioned wave with two vs subtitle duplicate and the current one churn keycom anywhere else. You want to send people, you go to my twitter, it's atBard Hall on twitter and trying to get more active there, and I need to get apersonal website up. That's one of my projects coming up soon. If anybodyhears this and wants to help me with that project, I'd love free to reachout, but yeah yeah. Follow me on twitter. That's where I kind of shareupdates and news and different things. I'm interested in so ye. It's at BardHall on twitter at Bard Hall also appreciate that okay, we'll keep up thegood work man. I really like the journey and the creativity and thejumping from one idea to the next. Even if it's not always what you think isthe Etretat play or that you made it work. So that's awesome and yeah. Ilove following the journey, so the thanks for joining me and sharing itthanks appreciate. I hope you enjoyed that interview withbarren hall. I really thought that was one of the most in depth stories. I'vebeen able to share in a while, so I hope you got a lot from it as well. Ifyou think this interview would help a friend or a colleague, maybe someoneyou know who's entrepreneurial or is already running their own start up andcould benefit from hearing what bar talked about share. This episode withthem send them a link directly to the...

...download or send them the name of theshow vested capital or my name Jaro, and tell them to go download episodethree and if you're not already subscribed to vest the capital in yourpodcast APP of choice, open it up now, if you're not already of using it andclick the subscribe button, or you can look for the show under the name vestedcapital or Yaro Y, a R O. that's my name, and you should find my show therehit the subscribe button and you'll get all the episodes as I release them,plus access to the entire back catalogue of vested capital episodes.Okay, my name is zero. I look forward to talking to you on the very nextepisode by Bye.

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