Vested Capital
Vested Capital

Episode 9 · 3 months ago

(EP9): Jonathan Little Professional Poker Player With $7+ Million Winnings, Founder PokerCoaching.com

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Jonathan Little is a professional poker player with over $7 Million in career earnings from tournaments (both online and in person) and is one of the most popular poker coaches/personalities in the industry.

He's also co-founder of PokerCoaching.com, a membership site and training community with over 5500 paying members, making it a multiple seven-figure business.

I met Jonathan via Jason Calacanis and his angel investor syndicate. Jonathan is an active investor in all kinds of different asset classes, from NFTs to Magic: The Gathering cards, although he is of course most focused on poker.

During this interview we go back in time to learn how Jonathan got his start in poker, how he quickly became a professional, earning as much as $30,000 a month playing a specific type of poker online. We also learn how he upped his game to the point where he won over a million dollars from one tournament - twice.

There's a lot of wisdom in this interview, and while much of it seems specific to excelling at Poker, Jonathan's advice can be applied to other aspects of life, from being a startup founder, content marketing and when to invest versus when to spend your money to grow faster.

I enjoyed this one a lot, and I'm sure you will too.

Yaro

Podcast: https://www.yaro.blog/pod/
Blog: https://www.yaro.blog/

Hey hey: this is yaro and you're.Listening to vested capital episode, number nine featuring my guest atjonathan little, a professional poker player with over seven million dollarsin career winnings and the co founder of poker coaching and the head coachthere as well a membership site with over five thousand five hundred payingmembers. So a multi, seven figure business bested capital is a podcastabout how people make money and build capital and then put their capital towork. I interview: startup founders, who've, enjoy big exits angel investors,venture capitalists, crypto stock traders, real estate in besters andleaders in tech and, of course, now professional poker players as well asyou're about to hear, with this interview with jonathon little, who hasmade over seven million dollars in career earnings and is the owner andhead coach of poker coaching com. In this interview we go back in time andhear about jonathan's early days first, as a gamer in magic, the gathering adifferent card game that was kind of his gateway to playing poker. It wasalso a game i used to play as a teenager, so i had to dig a littledeeper into what type of magic jonathan was playing and also we talked a littlebit about the value of magic, the gathering cards and how much they haveincreased over time and jonathan actually still owns quite a few highlyvaluable magic cards. We then switch gears into his poker career. He wasvery quick to ramp up to about thirty thousand dollars a month in earnings asa professional poker player, mostly due to his ability to focus on the math andstudying the the game itself, he was able to basically take advantage ofsomething that was available to anyone, but he was willing to put in the workand do the math and also look for certain types of tournaments in thiswas a definitely a trend. I noticed in a lot of the advice he kept givingthroughout the whole poke story was just being smart about whichtournaments you enter looking at the players and just entering basically atype of tournament, where you're slightly better than everyone elseplaying. It makes a lot of sense to me as well, but i think there's a skilleven in doing that and there's quite a lot of advice that jonathan explainshere. He talks about how he went from you know: w a thirty thousand dollarmonth poker player had some. Some good winds had some losses, what it takes tomamaita a bank roll, how to use your money as a professional poker playerand then, most importantly, i think how he went on to actually have a couple ofmillion dollar winnings in tournaments, but very much using the same philosophycan certainly see the strategy that jonathan talks about a lot in thisepisode about choosing the right tournaments practicing a craft, gettingnot just getting good through the act of playing the game, but studying thegame he's a great example of telling who's focus on one thing and gottenreally good at it, and then he's turned that into a business itself in terms ofa coaching practice and a digital teaching empire he's a an online pokercelebrity in terms of how much content he produces. He has a youtube channelnow, with over a hundred thousand subscribers, so you're going to hearthat whole journey. In this episode we talk a little bit towards the end aswell about what kind of investments jonathan has done since he's been inbeen in ftes lately, crypto he's had some property over the years and infact i met him through angel investing. So you hear about that connection aswell. Okay. So if you're new to this podcast, i would recommend yousubscribe. There will be a subscription button or a follow button or a plusbutton somewhere in the podcast app you're, using to listen to this episode.If you hit that you will then be subscribed to invest to capital andwe'll get all the future episode, it's plus access to the full back catalogueof amazing interviews like this one with jonathan, if you don't yet have apodcast tapp, though you can head to my website and you'll, find all thesubscription links as well. Just go to yaro yaro dot, blog blog and you'llfind the podcast tab there, or you can just go straight to bested capitalpodcast com. If that's easier for you to remember, and that will re direct tothat page, you can find the show on all the main podcast players as well asonline for streaming. Okay, that's enough about subscriptions! Let's startplaying the episode! Here's jonathan little, all right! Jonathan thanks for you inin me today, it's great to meet you...

...thanks, faming and happy to be on here.So you are actually the first ever professional poker player to be on mypodcast and also a poker coach. I know i've had a poker. Someone in the pastleft a surface that interview and see, if you guys, maybe even know each other,but as far as i know, you're definitely the first person who's ever got thekind of numbers you do in the world of poker in terms of results and also as acoach running a big membership site. That's about all! I know about you sofar, so i'd love to dive into that history, but also everything else.You're doing- and i should say just for the audience sake that we actuallyconnected on a slack room for a syndicate- were a part of with a jasoncalcano and his investment group, so you obviously do angel investing aswell. Have i missed anything in summary else that you're kind of involved withor have been involved with, there's a lot going on right now i mean that youhad the main points. I have a poker training site poker, cochino part ownerof a publishing company that publlishe a lot of poter books all these books uphere i have my hands in substantially. I don't know don head first into ftes,recently, probably going to lute a bunch of money. Doing that and that'sit, that's it. What kind of nf are you looking at everything we have somecrypto ponks? We have some mebe. We have some board apes. We have some gift,goats, all sorts of stuff. Okay, so melodies probably has no idea what anyof those things are but appreciate the i didn't have any idea what they wereuntil about a month ago, and then here we are we're all in so yeah. Why not? Just for the sake of the numbers to, iknow, obviously, with professional poker. A lot of your numbers arereported. Do you do have like a summary of your kind of results you can sharewith us when that world or well so any time anyone wants to know aboutanyone's poker results they can type in to google, the person's name jonath alittle and then g p. I that's global poker index or hindon mob, it's kind ofthe same site and that will list everyone's cashes now cashes, don'tnecessarily mean profits. Cashes mean how much you have cash for intournaments, not counting your byans. Some people who have millions ofdollars and winnings are losers. Some people who have hundreds of thousandsof dollars and cashes our winners, but i have something like seven milliondollars in cashes. Give her take i've been around for a long time. I wasplayer at the year with a bunch of trophies behind me if you're watchingthe video here and i've been around for a long time, so recenly good pokerplayer, certainly not the best in the world, but i don't know top hundredtournament player. Give er take something like that yeah, i don't thinkthe average s have one seven million, but can you clarify when you said likesome people can win a millions but not be profitable? I know there's all kindsof things going on behind the scenes with people being staked and otherthings like that. Is that why you might not be profit? Is it simply the cost ofbeing a professional poker player? Well, there's all sorts of things. Right imean imagine, you are a professional poker player and you spend fifty sendollars a year traveling to fancy casinos right. So if you win thirtyzandor on the year, but you spend tk you're down twenty k out the door right,even though you're results may say, look i'm up fifty sand dollars, i'mcrushing it, but like not really right. Also, there are a lot of high byingtournaments. If you look at the top, i don't know fifty people on that thosesites. I recommended the gobal booker index. I would bet some number of themare down, despite having i don't know, fifteen million dollars and cashes,because they're buying into twenty five thousand dollar buying tournaments fora million dollar buying tournaments, as often as they can and if you buy in fortwenty five million dollars and you cast for fifteen you're down to tenmillion dollars. But i think it's generally thought that in the pokerworld you do not want to actually give clear results for people in terms ofthis players down ten million dollars, because nobody wants it publicly knownthat you're a big loser at poker right because, like that's bad for yourbusiness to some extent right there. A lot of pole who just like to gamble andplate, play some cards right. There's always this debate in the pook world of,should we have very clear results and there are thoughts of like maybe makingspecific tournament tours where they are going to put out very clear resultsof who's, the winner and who's the loser. But at the end of the day youwant to play poker with people who are worse than you at poker, because that'show you make money make money when people make mistakes that you don'tmake and that results in you not really...

...wanting the profits and losses ofeveryone to be very, very clear. Okay, i didn't realize that was as high as atwenty five million buying tournament. Twenty five thousand dollar bit. Okay,i was going to say, but there are a million dollar buying tournaments. Okay,i think the biggest one ever was a million pound by internet, which was, idon't, know one point, eight million dollars. So there's there are a fewvery big buying tournaments yeah. I don't plain those the biggest i playtypically about a hundred thousand dollars and that's on the upper end ofwhat i can handle it's important to make sure if you're trying to be aprofessional, that you do not act like a degenerate gambler and you don't risktoo much at any individual point in time. So you have to have somediscipline and you want to make sure you're playing and games where thereare worse players than you, because if you're the worst player you're notmaking any money and then you're the gambler fair enough and in terms ofyour coaching side of the business, any numbers you're happy to talk aboutthere, because i that's a pretty big business. You've got going right. Yeahwe have about. I don't know. Five thousand five hundred active payingmembers is a membership site where we have all sorts of content. We haveinteractive quizzes. We have live webinars where the students caninteract with a lot of the best players in the world in real time. We have livestreams where you can watch some of the best poker players play their highstakes. Games live and ask them questions we have in depth courses. Ihave a tournament course that is about forty hours, long, which will teach youeverything you need to know to bet poker tournaments. It's big! It's an indepth, it's advanced, but that's the kind of stuff. You need to be studyingto actually succeed at a reasonably high level. There's a lot of stuffthere. People can check it out, a poker, cochino free and i hired some of thecoaches to teach like relatively low level content, because i realize a lotof the people who come to me are beginners, but then i also hired someof the players who are like literally the best in the world, and i hired themto effectively teach me because i'm always trying to learn from the bestplayers in world. We have one guy who was recently the number one onlinetournament player in the world needs playing all the big games and crushingit, and i want to learn from that player. So there's there's lit levelstuff high level stuff, whatever you need to succeed at poker. Is thereawesome? Okay, so hoker coaching com and slash free if you want to getstarted, but free that that's awesome appreciate the share. I'd love to knowhow that business grew. But i really would like to start at the verybeginning here with each one, and so can we go back? Even i don't know.Teenage years was that when you were interested in poker or what were youfocused on at that time and where were you born as well? Yes, i was born inpensacola florida. There was no casinos, no gambling in pensacola florida, theclosest place was biloxi mississippi, which is about a two hour drive away,and so i didn't know anything about pokergambling et cetera, but i played a lot of games as a kid. I was decently goodat chess and i found a game magic. The gathering that i was really good at iswell and i would go play magic, the gathering tournaments. This is a cardgame kind of a mixture between chess and poker and also has some financialimplications with trading which is need as well like baseball cards or what not.So anyway, we would play magic tournaments, every two or three daysand i would play i was a very good magic player there and one day anotherone of the players said: why don't we play a one dollar buy in pokertournament, tiny stakes after the magic tournament. So we all said short: weall put up our dollar and it turns out that guy and one other guy one almostevery time- and i need chess- was a skill game. I knew magic was a skillgame and i thought maybe this pokers a skill game. So i bought a few pokerbooks and i studied them. I read them and then i put fifty dollars into anonline booker site called party poker and started playing tiny stakes games.I played, i think, twenty five cent. Fifty cent limit hold on limit, holdins kind of a dead game. Now this was, i don't know, fifteen years ago,seventeen years ago, whatever it was two thousand and three eighteen yearsago, goodness time flies, so i played tines lace games and over the next fewyears i turned the fifty dollars into something like three hundred fiftythousand. By the time i was twenty one, so we grinded it up. I've eventuallytransitions to no lemindee, which became popular back in that time, and igot very good at a particular format. Called sitan goes, which areessentially nine person tournaments. Everyone buys in for, let's say, ahundred dollars, and then the winner...

...gets fifty percent of the prize. Coolsecond place gets thirty percent, their place gets twenty percent, and that'sit. Aeris gets nothing. These are very fast, structured tournaments. Theyresulted in you becoming very shallow stacked quickly and as the stacks getshallow, it becomes more of a straight math game because there's no readingpeople or anything like that online to some extent. So you just follow what the math says, andthere were a few programs out there that i had access to that. Apparentlyother people did not or they didn't use them properly and that resulted in mebeing a big winner in those games. So by the time i was twenty one i wasmaking. I mean i don't know thirty or forty thousan dollars a month playingthis really like easy mathematical game and that result in to me dropping outof college, because i was making a bunch of money back. Then, when iturned twenty one, i started playing live poker tournament because i waswatching people on the world, poker tour and world series of oger play, andi thought i could probably play better than them. So that's sort of getting mylaunching pad into the live booker space. The fact that i have studiedthat game a lot yeah. That was that, but i mean whenever i was nineteen andtwenty one. All i really did was play poker and study poker like fourteenhours a day every day and that will make you really good at poker orwhatever you're doing but like pretty bad at everything else in life. So ihad like no friends, no good relationships or anything like that,and it's tough because i don't know if i would recommend that to people,because it's not it's probably not good for you or mental well being to sit inyour room all day, studying poker and playing poker and at the same time, ifi look at a lot of the best poker players in the world, they've all donethat exact same thing, so to get really good at anything. I do think you needto have some period of time where you just go really really deep on it andlearn as much as you possibly can. Okay. Now i want to continue the pokes story,but i have to go back to the magic years. I was actually imaged thegathering player in australia at sort of the mid till late s is that when youwere sort of playing were you playing the pro tour? I did not play thepromotor i qualified for okay, i think twice, but i didn't get to go because iwas i don't know, fifteen years old or whatever my parents wouldn't. Let me goto china or wherever they had it. For no thing was, i don't know what it wasanyway. I was playing like locally at you know. I would travel to louisiana and south florida to playtournaments and i was not like the best player in the world or anything i was.I played a lot of vintage, unfortunately or fortunately, becausewhen i look at it where i lived, they played a lot of vintage because a lotof people just wanted to play with the cards i had. This is the format whereyou get to play with all the cards, and i was, i guess, better than them andmagic. It's in vintage, it's unfair to some extent where you get to have justway better cards in your opponents than i would like, never lose me and whatother guy had all the good cards? Everybody else did not have good cards,so you just me and the other guy one every tournament. So i got to be numbereleven in the world ranth in vintage at one vintage well in vintage, and doesthat mean you was? I mean they got rid of the rankings long time ago, and ilooked up i still like number fifteen or something is like not playing inmany years. The rankings are clearly silly, though yeah they were fun tolook at, but i'm curious and if you played vintage this really ties into. Iguess we look at today's world of magic together and you look at like a blacklotus card or the power nine o. Those are investments in themselves. So didyou have and still have those cards from back in the day or yeah, so i hada very good magic collection back in theday i was working a job at an airport that resulted in me. I played a magicturnament. One day i got home at four. A m had to be a work at six m. The nextday. Okay got home left all my stuff in the car went to sleep, and somebodyrobbed me, so they took all of my good magic carts, but i went back. Iremember i bought a deck for like twenty oars out of the common ben orwhatever grinded it back up and had a good collection. Then after i got intopoker, though i played like no magic because, if you're making many hundreddollars per hour playing poker, why in the world wild to go, play magic tomake no money, so i stopped playing magic and then it must have been about.Ten years ago i sold my collection for like twenty thousand bucks, orsomething which you know is a good amount of money, but today pobby wortha million bucks or something yeah, something like i don't know. I must tobe eight years or ago or so now. I just started like buying up magic cards,because i thought i noticed the power...

...nine had not really increased. Recently.These are expensive magic cards and dole land same thing. I thought theywere all relatively cheap at like a hundred dollars per card or whatever itwas so now i have a pretty big collection again, i have a instagramaccount called daily magic muse, where i post a magic card whenever i feellike i used to post every day, but whenever i feel like it, i have apretty big collection: have a i'm really into signed and altered cards. Ialso noticed that it's going to sound a little bit more bit, but if the artistof the card dies, that card goes way up and value if it is signed and or thereis art on it, so i have like an alter power. Nine set, all of my duel handsare altered in some way by the original artist and that may pay off it. May not.I think it will, though, and it's good to have fun unique stuff, that's kindof high and it's almost like art right, there's, one mona, lisa or whatever,and it's incredibly valuable right. There's only one altered black lotus,like mine by christopher rush and sitting right down there on the floor.So anyway, a is it a a beta or unlimited or no. No, no, you do notwant to get the bato ones altered. I was on a the ones. Are worth a lot moremoney you want to get the unlimited beat up ones altered because then, likeyou, can't really decrease the cards value all that much because from acollectible point of view, if a card is in like pristine ment condition, youdon't really want to mess that up. But if the cards already like the lowestgrade, it can be within reason. You can't really make it any worse, so itonly improves the value to get it altered at that point make sense. I cansee why you're into ft, if we fast forward to the present and thecollectible individual unique aspect of that would witan right very nicely. Ohgosh, who knows it's tough, because you know who knows it's a bit of a gamble,but you know you find spots. You think are good you load in and and pray well.Who would have thought that i magine the gathering still here today. Likeyou know, thirty plus years is ago, and these cards are worth so much, i wouldnever have guessed that in you know, when i was playing so so funny enough.My parents were just in town and my mom brought. It was called a memory bookfrom when i was in eighth grade and there was a page on it on my threefavorite things: they were computers, baseline, an apple computer, magic, thegathering and what was the other one? Oh nintendo, and i was thinking if ihad invested in those three things back in the day. I would just be filthy,rich yeah e. All of those thoughts have gone through the roof and instead ididn't. I just played the games, and now we're not mean we were doing welloff, but you know what i'm saying right like and the page was called fantasticfans. I'm like look. This was a vatic, the all i hope for you. These thingsare, are booming. It's awesome! No, it's funny too, because then we becomeadults and we start something else in your case poker, and you know thatbecomes our main focus. But it's not that unusual. I remember when i wasplaying magic. There was so many people who went for magic. It was like agateway drug into poker, a professional poker if yer like so can we continueyour story, switching back to poker land, so you're, making like thirtythousand ish a month playing online with your sort of mathematical formula,which is not a guaranteed win, but it sound like at that time. It wascertainly an advantage for you. What happened next, like do you? Do you savethat money like hit is a poker player. Think about this? Are you buyingproperty on this side? Are you thinking i want to graduate to bigger tournament,so i need more money to buy in like what's the philosophy there, a bunch ofquestions there, so first things. First, all you really have to do to win atpoker is find a game. You can beat play it a ton and keep a proper banquet. Soback then i was playing these two hundred dollar by and sit in go term.It's nine person tournaments and my edge was relatively small. I would winfive dollars or ten or per game, but i would then play three thousand or fourthousand of them each month and it turns out if you're, putting in a lotof volume, even with a relatively low edge you just like, can't lose. I thinki had like two losing months and they were like margin losing months over thecourse of two years doing this, and this is how it works right. At the endof the day, volume cures marians as some extent where you'll have swings,but you just know they don't matter, because you are like a clearly provenwinner. Now in games like multi table tournaments with a lot of people like ahundred people or ten thousand people, there's an be way more varience rightand that's why you know volume becomes...

...very important want to play a lot ofgames, and that makes it to where you essentially get to the long run at somepoint and as you are playing games with more and more people like five hundredpercent terms or thousand person turnaments, you need a proportionatelybigger, an bigger bank roll because you don't win a five hundred persontournament. All that often where is you win a nine person tournament prettyoften right, even if you break even you win it one and nine per to one and fivehundred. So if you only get a good pay out one and five hundred a one and twohundred or whatever it is, if you play one game per day, you'regoin a get one or two good scores for you, which is not very often right. Irealized that a long time ago and i've always put in a lot of volume,purposely whenever i am playing- and i still do that today, whenever i play itry to play as much as i reasonably can in the time. I have a lot ed back then.What have i did so by the time i turned twenty one. I had about three hundredfifty thousand dollars, which is a good amount, probably not quite enough to beplaying the highest teaks live tournaments back then, which were tenthousand dollar buying games in reality you probably need, i don't know one and a half million give er take sothe first year i played i was playing mostly thousand dollar tournaments,fifteen hundred dollar tournaments, which were which are still most of thetournaments that exist, and i did very poorly for the first year i lost abouttwo hundred thousand dollars, which is frustrating, but i understand why it'sbecause i was really good at that short stack, mathematical, poker game. I wasnot good at the deeper stacked game because i not studied it it all right.I was really good at a particular form of poker, but not the form of pokerthat was being played in live casinos where you're playing deeper stacks andthe pay out structure is very different number back to the nine handedtournament. Thirty, three percent of the people get money back where's. Thena multi table tournament in casinos that you see on tv, something like tenpercent of the people or fifteen percent of the people get money back.So the pal structure is very different. Also if you win a nine persontournament, you get four or five biens right. So, if you buy in for twohundred bucks, you get nine hundred dollars back, let's say, but if you buyinto a two hundred lar tournament with a thousand people, you may win backgosh. I don't know sixty thousand dollars right. It's like a substantialamount more, so the pawl structure was very different and i did not properlyadjusted those things for a while, but it was always talking to good otherother good poker players on po performs and studying from them eventuallyrealize the air in my ways, and things started going better when i was twentytwo, i had a good score in the bahamas and that was a fifth place in a worldpoker tour torment for three hundred twenty thousand, which is quite nicegoing back to backing. I was back then, but i still got to keep a large chunkof it. We kept wearing to get up. That means like take the winnings. You getput it into the next tournament, winning that's a thing or well, so youask: what do we do with the money? Yeah athen a twenty three two? Well, i madea few errors with money back in the day. Well, i call i call the marrs lookingback, it's like fine, but my parents always talk you're supposed to go toschool, get a degree by a house and then you're set. So i bought acondominium with my money when i was like nineteen years old, so i had thatto ur a d twenty a, but then i put like a hundred thousand dollars of it downon this condominium that was effectively paying it off, but then that kind of locks up that ahundred thousand dollars and for all practical purposes is just gone right.So when i was twenty, i went on a bit of a down swing at some point. I forgetexactly how this went, but i resolved that i was going to move downto the small stakes. Games and just went a hundred byans at every level soisn't played. Ten dollar games won a hundred binds. If i won that i move upto twenty, then thirty and fifty one hundred and over the course of a fewmonths. I got back to the top, but there was one point where i forgetexactly how the numbers work but like half my money was locked up in thishouse and i really didn't want to go broke. Some poker players think it'sexciting or extravagant to feel risk and to feel excited and feel adrenalinwhen you're playing, but i want none of that. I just want to be printing. Mymoney right. I just want to show up use my skills print money and not worryabout not being able to eat or having a roof over my head right. So i've alwaysbeen a little bit more conservative with my bank roll in general than somepoker players, especially the old school poker players, who were ofteneither really rich or really broke, but i think a lot of people who came up andpoker like i did have been relatively...

...conserve with their bank for old to thepoint that they're never really at risk and walking up a third of my money. Itmade it to where i did not have the opportunity to play bigger gamesprofitably that i otherwise could have done. If i did not do that, that's atthe alternative would be to rent a place and that's sometimes good,sometimes bad. It depends on your life senary, but as a young kid i did notneed to be buying a house, because who knows what i'm going to continue livingin that exact place for any amount of time? That was probably a mistake, butyou know whatever it's fine money's locked up in it does okay, it's notlike it's the end of the world. It is hard to say, like your risk profile atthat age meant, you probably would have been happy to put more money intorisker things than a property. At the same time, it's the most common advicewe get from most generations is to buy property as soon as you can it's safe.It's consistent! So you, you know it sounds like you kind of did. Both youstill manage to you know, have a start of a poke career right, so yeah so well.What i did is, after i startd winning poker term as eventually won atournament for a million dollars and another one for a million dollars. Iwas a player of the year and bunch more trophies up here for all the people whoare watching the video it was all like all we did. We did pretty well rightand every time i also eventually, you don't need any more money in your bankfall because your bank coll is so big to the point that you are properly beenrolled for the games. So i mentioned we need a million and a half dollars toplay these tournaments. Anything more than a million and a half dollars intheory should be invested in something else, because this is sitting aroundnot really doing anything for you and back. Then they did not really havetournaments bigger than ten thousand dollars. I was very different today,but back then that was kind of like the biggest that you could play so once wegot above some amount, i would start buying a house every time and thenusing it either to live in or to rent out, and they ended up with four placesover the course of a few years and they were all generating some amount ofrental income, and that was good. What a lot of coca players do with theirmoney initially when they went in, they go out they party and they blow it. Buti never really had that issue. If anything, my quote unquote leak waslocking up money to the point that sometimes i would have liked to be ableto access it. But but i couldn't write so i would not necessarily recommend itlike real estate to poker players, particularly because it's not lateat,you kind of want your money to be in something that ideally returns capital,but is also liquid. The like the angel bestes, probably not the bestinvestment for most people, because that money is super locked up. At leastyou can sell a house if you need to you, can't really sell a small fraction of acompany that is, you know two years into existence is not worth a time ofmoney, but that's that, as you get more and more money, you need to find moreand more ways to lock it up in indivertible way or in ways that youjust enjoy that you think will be reasonably profitable. And i meanthat's what i do. I've been lucky to the point that i've been able to lockup some money right. A lot of poker players find themselves in a spot where,let's say their bills are five osena per month and they make six thousanddollars per month on average playing and so they're, not really banking, aton of money each month, but i was always like i tried to live relativelycheaper, like i never flew first class or never stayed in nice. Sweets oranything, and i was reasonable- is what it amounts to a lot of poker playerswhen they get a hold of a million dollars and start being veryunreasonable. And you know they start flying first class everywhere andstaying at the biggest weed in the place, and i recognized that i had beenrelatively fortunate to win a few big tournaments and i realized i couldeasily go on a downswing because i remember back to my first year playinglive poker. I like lost everything for six months, and i've had multiple baddown swings in live tournaments since then, and in between those two scoresright and it happens, and i understand the variance that is inherent to pokerand i plan for it to some extent. I don't just think i'm going to continuewinning indefinitely, because i mean look whenever you play. You have anedge, but you only really cash up that edge in tournaments. When you win oneof the big tournaments, which happens one in a hundred times, which is isn'tthat often, and if it's a one and a hundred shot, you may not get it forfive hundred tournaments, which leads me to a question. What does it take toget to the point where you even have that one and one hundred chance to win?Like a million dollar return in poker like what what change? Even your ownlife practice, you know skill set at...

...how much is practice versus luck versusjust time playing those sorts of things. Well, so a lot of people view poker asa get rich quick scheme to the point that they tried to win that milliondollars. They see people like chris moneymaker, who turned whatever it was:twenty five dollars and the two and a half million on espn when you want theworld series of poker back in two thousand and three and thought. Oh i'dlike to do that. It's like yeah, obviously, but it turns out pokers agreat way to get rich slowly, but a really bad way to get rich quicklybecause then you're just kind of treating it like a parley. Like imagine,you had to watch the baseball games today and pick five of them they allhave to win. These have been done like really really hard to do that. Even ifyou've been on all the favorites, that's kind of how a lot of peopletreat poker, i mean every year a lot of people play locally in games, they canbeat and they play a lot and they win five or ten thousand dollars, and thenthey take all of that money and they go out to the world series of poker, whichis the big poker tournament series in las vegas and they play way bigger thanthey normally do because at home, maybe they play a hundred dollar games. Butat the world series they play fifteen hundred dollar games and they givethemselves a few shots to try to get rich and when a thousand persontournament- and they almost always all go home broke, and then they do itagain. The next year they try to win ten thousand dollar. They win tenthousand dollars. Take it back out, lose it again. Yet you get rich.Sometimes why would you not just grind at home and make tenenos for let's sayfive years now you have fifty sand dollars. You can go out. There playfive hundred dollar tournament with a hundred byans and give yourself a realshot to actually grind it up. Ben said they want to try to get rich and thatresults in most people failing so the e of how do you get in a space where youcan win a million dollars and a poker tournament? You can go about it in alot of ways. You can gamble really hard. You can be really nitty and i've beenpretty pretty cautious and with my banker in those situations and that'sgiving me actually a good shot to do it, because i was willing to sit there andgrind it out by myself and my room for fourteen hours a day for three yearsstraight to get a hold of some money right and then, when i played livetournaments for the first year, i played like every small stakestournament, because i realize that's what i needed to do. I was not properlybank roll for the big games and if i did hop right into the big games, wheni turned twenty one i would have lost all my money would have gone brokebecause i probably lost fifty buyns, but fifty three hundred dollar buy andis only fifteen thousand bucks or whatever it is right, whereas fifty tensand dollar binds is five hundred thousand dollars, and i only had threehundred fifty and a hundred evil was locked up, so i would have gone brokeif i just hop right into the biggest game, so i try to be reasonable with itright, but when you say that, though, is a lot of this is your stands likeyou crunching numbers, but how much of this is simply you getting better as apoker player. Yeah ideally want to get better. Well, so going back to thethings you have to do to succeed, you have to find a game. You can beat rightfinding it can be playing a lot t keep a proper bank roll and you can eitherfind a game you can beat by playing with worse opponents or by improvingyour skill to the point that people who are equally skilled. You become worseopponents right. If you look at a lot of the biggest winners in poker.Actually they are not actually all that good at poker. They just play in reallysoft games. There are people who play private games and los angeles withcelebrities or hedge mint managers in new york who play, and they don't letpros play it's just like a bunch of okay poker players playing, but ifthey're playing gigantic stakes and someone there is the best playersomeone's, usually the best player that players goin t be a gigantic winner.This is like molly's game, o t. You have to find a game. You can be right,so you either do that by selecting your game better or just substantiallyimproving your skills, and i always realize that you want to be as good asyou possibly can because like in chest, for example, if you're just worstingyour opponent, you loose right and at the end of the day, if you look atpoker the best players, like always wins along in the long run, there is nogamble in it. In the long run you have to get to the long run. Okay, so inyour own, personal journey was simply a case of just graduating up each levelin terms of both your bank roll, your skill set, and then you play enougheventually, you start winning that the bigger number is basically right andthe thing is, is you make some amount of verturn on investments? Every timeyou play a poper tournament, it's kind of hard to know exactly what it is, butit is some positive or negative number right and if you are adequately skilledat assessing player strengths, you can...

...kind of figure out if you're going towin or lose money, and if i don't think a game is good. I just don't play it,because i'm not going to play poker in to get my gamble on i'm going to try towin money. A good example of this one time i flew to los angeles to play aten housenlager ent. That is always a good tern. Ment y have a lot of peoplein it. There's things called satellite poker tournaments where people buy intolike one tenth of the buyin, and then one in ten gets their way into thebigger tournament they're trying to parley and get rich quick. You want toplay with those players because they're usually not adequately skilled right,but the day before this ten thousand dollar buying tournament, there was afive thousand dollar tournament with no satellite qualifiers. So the main misgonna have a thousand people there. A lot of bad players was going to begreat, but it's five thousand dollar tournament smaller by in had sixtypeople in it and they were all really really good. So i flew to los angeles.Looked at this tournament just didn't play right, even though i was probablyslightly profitable in the game. My return on investment there may be, idon't know five percent or ten percent, so i i really want to sit there for twodays or a day or, however long it took to win two hundred and fifty bucks andthe answers. No, i wouldn't i rather sleep funny enough. I actually went andplayed cash games, a different form poker that i that i play and there werelike no good players in the cash an because they were all having egobattles in this five thousand dollar tournament. So i end up winning liketwenty thousand dollars in the cash games over the course of that day,because the games were super soft. There were no good pros in it. Sothat's a good example like game selection. Right, like i flew to theflew across the country to play that tournament yeah, the tournament didn'tlook good, so i didn't plan it. So you have to have good discipline like that.I was actually just in vegas. Recently they had the us poker open, which is aseries put on by poker go which puts on a lot of live termes. They stream onthe internet. People o check that out of poor com and you could re enter the tournaments ifyou lost so for like six hours or something likethat, if you played the tournament lose, you could play it again. There was oneday where i had the option to re enter and i just didn't, because i lookedaround the field, the people still playing and they were all very good.The weeke players had all busted to so it ube me re entering in a game with abunch of very good players like there's no edge another day i busted and there were a bunch of bad players stillin the field. So i happily reentered right and that's because i realize i'mgoing to be in good shape against the weaker players and marginal shapeagainst the best players in the world right. So you want to make sure you'refinding games that you are profitable in and this this apply is like allforms of investing right like if you don't know what you're doing in yourponent, no better than you you're, probably not going to do so well right,which is why we might choose someone like jason and be part of a cynicbecause he's the one putting in the time to select the companies to investin and so on. Well, that kind of goes to the idea of like poker backing whereyou ideally want to be backing good players. Where you buy, you give themoney to buy a percentage of their action. Do you do you do that? Do youever back other players, or i have a piece of a backing company called pokaram po carr com? Essentially, what they do is they take players at thesmallest stakes: games like five dollar bing tournaments online and teach themto the point that they become some of the biggest winners. The number oneplayer the world i mentioned earlier used to be a back either, and you knowhe want all the money for them right. So i don't know they back some numberof hundreds of players online and it's like another low risk way to make moneybecause they're putting in a bunch of volume right- it's not like so today.Imagine there's a hundred players playing for me. I don't know twentyfive cent, not twenty five cent poker tournament on average right, because ihave a tiny piece of everybody and that's great right. I just i just ijust collect the money, collect the profit and yep. I like a little littlearmy of poker players every day. That's exactly right! Other players do this ina much more gambling way like i still sell action and whenever i play twentyfive thousand dollar buying tournaments are higher, and then i essentially sellpeople action at a tiny mark up, meaning let's say it's a hundredthousand dollar turn. One percent would normally cost. Let's say a thousanddollars right. Maybe i charge a thousand twenty dollars mats like whyeven charge the extra bit, because in...

...theory i think i have a bigger edgethan that two percent vigue in charging. Maybe we have an eight percent edge orsomething so then what happens? Is me in the back or split that difference?Some people get agreges with the mark up though, and they charge like atwenty percent vige, and that's only good. If that you are a lotbetter than your opponents, but if you're a lot better than your opponents,why do you need to get backed right yeah? There are i'm not going to saythey're necessarily scammers, but there are people out there who try to essentially take advantage of people,and you want to make sure you are not one of those. You always want to makesure you're. If you are selling action, your markup is reasonable and i anspose is happens in investing as well right. Some people send it gets chargea ton, some charge a little you have to figure out. Is there an edge there?Maybe there is. Maybe there isn't it's hard to know have a question regardingi mean poker as an ecosystem, there's a lot of things that have sort of come on theside, as i sometimes say that you know the picks and shovels that support thepoker players or the different ways to monetize poker, without actually beingthe person to play poker like supporting someone back and so on. Whendid you start looking at that as an option, because if you had made read acouple of million dollar results there, you must have been still thinking. Thisis my career in professional poker player. I played this game for a living,but now you're a coach. You just said you're, you know part owner of abacking company. When did that start in your mindset as something you thoughtwould be smart to? Do? I don't know if it ever really occurred to me that i was doing it. Iused to post on a various popero where i would get advice from people, and iwould give advice to them right and it turns out a lot of people liked theadvice i freely gave to other people, and that makes you a you know, valuemember of the community right. I eventually made a training sit it twoother guys that taught people how to beat sittings, which probably wasn'tthe smartest idea, because it was an easy game and it turns out sit and goestoday are not really all that profitable. No one wins at them. Sothat's a bummer that game is dead right. It's like why a people he has won youjust to in that, because the game is not hard, everybody learned and nownobody went. You can't find the game. You can beat any more at the medium orhide stakes, so you were kind of partially responsible for killing thegame and you started in poker with. I was unfortunately, very responsible forkiller, which is a bummer it's funny today. I have people come up to me allthe time like, oh yeah man, i used to watch the sitio games, sing o videosyou made and i beat them until they died. I'm like yeah. Well, you so did i so anyway, that's unfortunate. So youhave to be a little bit careful that you, don't you don't make the gameunbeatable, but now how did i get into so? I was makingvideos for a training site called. It was a european poper side doesn'treally matter where it was and another person there was the owner of apublishing company d and b poker which come now a part of, and they asked meto write a book because they love my videos. I love my posts on the form andthey thought i could make a good cooker book. They didn't have a book on poortournaments. They asked me to write it and i already taken on a few privatestudents and what i would do is every time they would ask me a question. Iwould just write an article about it, so i could get to anybody else whoasked me the same question right essentially scaling back then for a y.What scaling was- and i would write an article one time and be able to shareit, whoever wanted it whenever i made sense and i actually had like fourhundred pages of articles written on various topics already, because youknow you asked me a question about topic, i'll write a page or two aboutit there. It is we're good to go, had about foreigner pages worth, and i madean outline for a book and put it all. Together. There were a few spots i hadto go through and fell out o you know that had not written about, but i hadthem a five hundred page book in something like two weeks. I, oh my god.Oh this guy ride five under page book in two weeks, but i already had it doneright. I, like i didn't even know i was doing it. I mean like how did i getinto in the first place? I was helped by a lot of people. I would not bewhere i am today without the help of people who came before me and are stillcrushing the biggest games and it seems reasonable to get back to other peopleright, i mean they help you, you help other people, you help them whateverways he can and you all build and grow together. An booker looks like asolitary game, but it's to some extent it's kind of a team sport where ayou're not the best at a lot of things...

...and i'm not divested a lot of things,but somebody else may be and you can help them with that like. I was notreally good at playing deep sack poker, so i had to learn a lot from otherpeople, but i was really good and playing the shallow stack form a poker.So i helped a lot of people with that when they were not so good at it right-and you know you take your weaknesses and try to improve using other people'sstrength, and i was just like naturally doing this, and some people took noticeand wanted me to work with them. We wrote books, the books sold really well.We had the training sight that killed the sittang. We eventually moved tomultitap tournaments, which is like the most popular form poker that you see ontv and we started making content for that eventually that you guys in thebusiness got out. I took it over and went through a few iterations, buteventually we are where we are today. The training sight was interestingbecause i had this coaching. This was a work. I was called poker, cochino. Okay,it's been to a few other iterations and names, don't matter because they're nolonger here, but i basically had a site that was losingmoney. We had, i don't know a hundred members instead of five thousand and iwas paying coaches five hundred dollars per hour to make content which is kindof expensive, but that's their hourly rate, roughly that's what they wanted.So whatever you pay- and i was just like losing three or four thousanddollars per month for like two or three years, and i didn't really care becausei'd make plenty money from poker. I veter is almost like a communityservice to some extent, because you know if i, if i can spend a little bitof money to get good high quality content from good players share withother people lose lose a little bit of money. Who cares right one day iactually just broken up with my fiance who's, not my fiance. Today i have adifferent wife, different wife. I have a wife now who's, a dimmer woman he'svery great anyway. I just broken up in my fiance. This must have been fifteenyears ago or something- and i was at a a local casino and i just like randomlyplayed a small viand tournament to pass the time. While i was drinking sob line,and so i met a guy there who had just gotten outof a few marketing classes. He said: look i know you have your training sits.He asked how i was doing. I said not great. He said why don't you make me avideo of you playing maltitol, tournaments online and i'll try to sellit through affiliates on this site called click bank which still exists.So i feelings like where people can just sell your stuff that they like it.So i made an eight hour long video me just playing online tournaments all dayand i want a ton of buy him like i don't know it. It was, but i mashedthem, so it looked really good and he sold it or started selling itthrough a filias and we made like ten housen dollars in the first month. I'mlike oh, this is good because i was losing money and now i'm get paid tentosano a month for this one eight hour, video, so he's been with me since thenhis name's dan he's great and he does all of her email marketing and it wasme and him for a long time and eventually iron on more people to helpwith all sorts of other stuff. But it's kind of how i got into the contentsbase i had my own training site was failing and i probably would have gaveup on that at some point and man up widen and dan damn made itsuccessful. Okay, do you mind talking a little bit about that? Because thedifference between a hundred members and five thousand five hundred members-you know a member of site is huge. That's you know, like you, said, losingmoney to making a lot of money, my audience being very much in theinformation marketing space there always interested in how you scalesomething like this and what's the nuts in bolt, so i could guess i could thinkit's paid ads. I mean click bank, obviously is a market place that canget you some customers, but i don't think it scales you to five thousandfive hundred or maybe it does, but what's worked for you guys really well,we don't do any of that stuff anymore. That was good to get off the ground andit proved and knew what he was doing to some extent. So we had the failing training site. Weimmediately cut some of the more expensive content creators to make thatbasically break even to where it became more of a jonathan little sit insteadof a me and other people's site because, like i was not the biggest named personon the site back then so we got rid of some of the people and we made thatimmediate, profitable immediately right. So they were not losing forty ozroarhere, whatever it is good and we have this individual products called itjonathan little secrets we p were reselling and making ten sandolas formonth, which is good. We kind of chunked along just making more and morenew products right. I did not do any...

...email marketing back in the day, butdan was very good at that, so he was in charge of the email list. I was not good at web designed and coulddo that. Well enough, so like he did basically everything that i could notdo. I was in charge of the content. They was in tarant of everything else.Do you know how he grew? The email is just that of curiosity. Well, clickbank to some extent got a lot of people on the email list, but also, i wouldjust start promoting it. I was already writing articles for various pokerrelated publications like card player magazine they put thatout in every local sino and at the end we say check out this website to learnmore and people would get on. The email list had leave magnus right. We had alot of free stuff. We give away it's good that i have like a lot of freearticles and i can make videos relatively easily right s, content,marketing yeah, i mean that's. Basically it will. I have books rightmy books, anybody who buys one of my books and there's a lead magnet inthere to say to get this bonus. Go here, get on the email list and to keeppeople on the email. Is we continue, selling individual products for like ahundred dollars each for quite a while, but then something like three or fouryears ago? Actually, i'm sure getting the time line wrong. I don't call itfive years ago. I knew i kind of wanted to slow down.Have a family and be able to stay at home if i felt inclined and tenthousand dollars per month is good you're, not i live in manhattan. It'sexpensive here need to figure out a way to either well play poker from home and make aton of money which is kind of hard in today's environment from america or make this training sign good. So istarted spending a ton of time on it. Instead of making one four or six hourvideo per month, i was now just making a lot of content, and i also realizedwe needed to like revamp the training site to make it very different than allthe other training sites on the market and pretty much all the training sitesback then, were just me either presenting over a power point or meplaying poker and letting you watch, and that was it. They are three or fourother sites on the mark, in that that's still all they do it today. For themost part, we started doing a lot of interactive stuff like live streets.Where you can ask you a question to r, you have let the students call in, andwe answer their questions in real time. This we start doing a lot of livethings also have the twelve hundred interactive quizzes, where it's kind oflike you can go through and play hands and then get immediate feedback from meor one of the other coaches right. I also was going to sound bad. I realizedpeople like me, so i started to try to interact more of the fans right. Thiswas kind of before twitter to some extent and it wasn't for twitter fortwitter super popular and i got on twitter and started interacting withpeople right and like replying and a lot of people like. Oh, my god, i can'tbelieve you applied, but i replied to everyone. I read every single emailthat comes in today and i reply as it makes sense right. So basically i got it there and i didthe work and i made friends with a lot of people right and i tried to addvalue where's. A lot of other people want to show up. Do four hours of workper month and be done? I decided to turn this into a fifty hour, work week,job and make loads and loads and loads of content, and that's resulted inother people wanting to work with me and other people wanting to promote thesight right. A switch we made three or two years ago three years ago, was tostop selling individual products and just put it all everything we had inthe past and everything we're going to make in the future into the pokercoaching premium: membership which cost something like a hundred dollars permonth. We run sales for it, i'm not sure if i'm a huge fan of sales or not,but they seem to work dance good at the sales. I'd rather never put anything onsale, but i think that may be a big portion of our success and stuff toknow. Right is one way better. Not i don't know, it's probably better suresure it's that, but what i e instead of having to sell a product every singlemonth now people just get in the membership and know they're- can get awhole lot of stuff included right and that makes email promotion way easier,because now we just have to get really good at promoting one thing, which is agigantic membership that has infinite content like more than the basco jury,other training sights out there. That's also interactive, and it's kind of likean easy cell, because it's just jam pack with valley the other sides you'retrying to sell an eight hour course for a thousand dollars, we're trying tosell five thousand hours of content for...

...a hundred right. This just a kind of ano brina, so that was very beneficial. Also, istarted making a lot of youtube content. I hired a youtube editor who wasactually nedit at one of the big poker new sites got laid off because of ovidrecently and started making a ton of youtube content. We almost have ahundred thousand youtube subscribers now and that had like none two yearsago. So that's just making free content getting people on the email lists,going poker, cochino, lash, free right, doing stuff like this, and i guesspeople on the list and then you know dans en charge from there. Dan has allthe content. You could possibly need to make good email promotions and likeadded value, molto, it's like we're just sending an email saying by thisthing: good example this today i'm doing a webinars where i'm going to gothrough four like really high level hands that i played on youtube, livecompletely free and then that's going to take forty five minutes and then forfifteen minutes. After that, i'm going to promote our next sale that we'redoing for independents day right and i don't know ten thousand twenty thousandpeople will watch that and some of those people will, like the content,they'll find that in value and then they'll go look at it and maybe theybuy right and we do that on a regular basis, have a sale every month or twoevery month give her take. We do a lot of stuff. Do a lot of stuff yeah. Itsounds like you. Do s a lot of content, but really just try to ad a lot ofvalue. There's this trophy back here. That's for me being poker personalityof the year in two thousand and nineteen well, which is a award votedon by poker fans. They didn't have a tosano because of cod. There wasn'tthere were no award ceremonies, but if you do good work and at a lot of valueand try to be reasonably accessible, people take notice and they like it,what an mounsen! If people like you, then they will inevitably take a lookat what else you have to offer. I think a lot of people, especially a lot oflike training, fit brands, make the air to some extent of not highlighting theperson right. There's like here some content with a bunch of basicallyrandom people who don't interact with anyone, take a look n. They make it better ofover probably, but nobody cares right. You have to make people care for somereason: people care because they, like you, i mean like there- are people whostream magic. The gathering who i love right not even to play magic reallyanymore, but i still watch their stream sometimes because i, like them, they'repersonable. I like the way they operate and if they had a training side, i'dprobably subscribe to it right. Maybe that's what's happening here as well.No, it's a great example of the power of being really helpful. I mean thissimply put you're just helping a lot of people and you're being veryapproachable and personal about it. So if you do that for long enough, usingas many different content distribution channels as you can you're going to getattention, you're going to get emoi and then you're going to be able to getcustomers as a result, so i can understand the big picture of themembership site with dan, as as your kind of operational co founder. I guessin that business. Is that what you would consider your like your main gig?Now, like your really coach memberships at owner, or do you still play poker asmuch and continue? U self professional player plus? I know you said youstarting a family, so you probably have a family by now. So things of you knowyou don't have much time to do all of those things. Is that accurate? So ihave two boys now they're, two years old and four years old. So for the lastfive years, or so, i have been working on the training site, a ton beforecovin happened, and i guess since copas happened since it's almost over is overwhatever it is. I used to be exactly i used to play about one week per monthof live over and i would like try to play a lot in that week, so i would goplay very high value tournaments or turn a en series like a long time ago,just play like all the time. I just travel all the time and playingwhatever was available, and there are some tournament series where they havea main event and that's like thirty five hundred dollars right and then afew small events that, before that there are a thousand dollar, bindtournaments. If you go and play that you may make on average seven thousanddollars in the week, which is fine, but there are other tournament series wherethe main event is ten housen dollars. They have a bunch of other good side.Events where you may make forty thousand dollars on average, there's abe a ton of swings like a ton of wings, but you can do just like simple returnon investment, math and figure out.

Well, if i have to pick between one orthe other, i'm going to pick the one that i can make more money at right, soi'm very selective with the tournament series i go to to some extent now imean a good example. I just want to go play the us poker open in las vegas andevery other day there was a ten thousand or twenty five thousand orfifty osada broken over tournament for a week or two weeks, whatever it was,and that's like a good high value tournament series where i no i'm goingto go out there and make fifty thousand a hundred thousand dollars on average,and that's going to be good. So, instead ofplaying everything, i'm playing the highest value games, i also still tryto play online booker, usually one day for a week, sunday afternoons, that'susually the best day to play online poker. Just because that's how it is, istill try to play some and stay very relevant, but i also work on the training site like mondayto friday, night m till six p m every day. I sit in this office and i workall day and had something a lot of people don't do right. A lot of peoplewant a side job that makes some money, but i'm not looking for a side job totake a little bit f money, i'm looking for a real job to make a lot of moneytalk about sponsorships before and it's going to sound a little bit bad butlike white american men cannot get sponsorship deals because there are nomajor poker sites that operating legally within america right andthere's a lot of white american men who are good at poker. So it's like we'renot very different right. So a lot of people who get sponsored are not fromamerica from these poker sites, where you can't get sponsor ship, be a like.I've been offered a few very good sponsor deals from sieda in america.You're now representing a company, that's operating illegally and youdon't really want to be. The representative for an illegal gamblingside seems unwise, especially if you have a family just to clarify why? Whyis it illegal in america, legislation of the government? I don't know, i mean,look, there's there's a thing called the? U i gea unlawful internet, i don'tknow, what's called some some there was a law past a while back that was tackedon to a bill pertaining to nine eleven like the freedom act or something thatessentially made gambling online illegal in america. Now that is changedstate by state to some extent now so states are allowed to do whatever theywant. So we see online poker now and nevada, new jersey, delaware, few otherplaces, but you're playing with only people from those states. So definitelythere just aren't a lot of people compared to a world wide gambling siteright and it turns out that money kind of trickles to the top fromthe bottom people went at the small stakes. They lose it to the mediumsakes. People went at the medium state, they lose it to the high stakes. Peoplewent at the high stakes, they lose to the super high stakes right. People insuper ized takes cash it out, and the problem is that if there are not allthat many small six players, there aren't very many middle stakes playersand not very many isak players, and you can't really make a ton of money. Youcan make some good money like. I have a few students who live in these placesand i've seen her. Their grass are just like amazing and straight up, becausethe games are soft, because there aren't a lot of good players on thesite and they're winning. They probably went a hundred thousand dollars peryear, which is perfectly fine, but it's not. I get rich money right. It's fine,finding good t get rich money. So why is it legal? Because there's a law thatsays it's illegal and that said some companies still operate in america. Oneof them ban me recently because i said that they are not as safe as a usregulated bank. You should not keep all your money and the unlicensedunregulated illegal gambling site, but they have representative saying keepall your money on. There is perfectly safe, let's gets just not right and ikind of have i'm kind of a stickler for not inducing people to make detrimentalhairs right back whenever i was called black friday when k o l t a few of thepoker sites were shut down by the us government, a lot of people's money waslocked up for years and some of the sites never paid people back here. Ifthey did pay people back, it was like five cents on the dollar, and i don'twant that to happen to my students right, so you know, protect yourself, lbe smart. You it's like holding money in a cryptic currency exchange. Youjust don't know what could happen so yeah, don't leave it all on a changeyou might get hat seems obvious right, but you say that publicly the sightswill band you because they don't want anyone talking bad about them. Fine,that's a that's! A product right should...

...probably tell you how they operate inbusiness anyway. Anyway, what are i going to her?Oh yeah? I do not want to be sponsored by an illegal gambling. I and even thenthey don't pay like a ton of money back in the poker he day of two thousandthree t osan or two tousand five. You can get a deal that paid you hundredsof thousands o dollars per year and more like. If i was in the spot, i am in poker back theni'm sure i've gotten a very, very good sponsorship deal, but that's not wherewe live anymore. We live in this era, where not a lot of site sponsor playersif they do sponsor players, it's for a small amount of money like threetousand bucks for a month, and they want you streaming, live all the timeon their online poker site, which i'm not going to do, because i just don'thave the time for it and you don't need to, and- and i don't need to it's- notit's not worth the effort as war a out, but i realized a long time ago. If iever wanted to make money at poker by not playing poker, i either needed toget heavily in on the backing side or heavily and on the content creationside. So i did both right and to be fair. Most people in the contentcreation space in general don't make any money or make a minimal amount ofmoney, but you just have to get it get to scale is what it amounts you have tohelp a lot of people get better or enjoy what they do more right, and iwork hard to do that. But the idea a lot of people still have today is thati want to become a poker player and get a sponsorship. The out this problem isthis: that's not really worth any money and it takes a ton of effort, jonathan,so we're kind of getting over an hour or ish or just about an hour. I do havea few more questions, so this show is, is called best the capital and we'veready covered. You were in property early on then it sounds. Like pokerbecame your main source of capital and cash flow. Then it starts to branch outto a few little like teaching businesses. Then it became pokercoaching, which is obviously a big source of your cash full. Now youmention your part owner of the backing staking company. That's got lots ofhundreds of poker players that you own a little share. How well they do youmentioned them. We ewe talk before we record this, that you were fill helmetsbook launch party and your part owner of a publishing company that was to dowith his book. So there's a lot of things going on. You have magic cardinvestments. You have ft investments, i'm assuming you probably have somecrypto. We even talk about that. If we look back on everything you've done sofar and where you're at now, what has been the most successful source of you,building capital and cash flow in your life, if you're, if you're willing toshare well so yeah, so poker, is really good to take a small amount of moneyand turn into a pretty good amount of money. Right, like you, can get a holdof a million dollars playing poker, but you're not going to get a hold of ahundred million dollars playing booker is not going to happen so poker.Definitely, he was like all of my income for many years, but eventuallyyou transition over and you know, crypto has been fine. I haven't gotrich off crypto. They got me on the icos back in the day, so that was greatshould have got into ftes instead of icos, but that's fine, we're not i'm soup right, so call o what it is. That's said it could drop fifty percent todayand i'd be down right. The substantial sources have been come in, my life havebeen poker and that is slowly decreased as i've stayed home more because if youdon't play, you don't want any money and i've been staying home having afamily saying home, because i covet etcetera and now the training sitesbecome the vast on jordan, my income and and that's just because that's thething that has done the best and it turns out. I do pretty well when i dothings in poker. I do not do especially well, and i do things not in voter,because i'm not an expert at it right very, very important- to invest most ofyour time and effort and things your expert out. How do you get good atsomething, though, if you don't try is always the consideration, but youshould try things, especially when you're young, but as you get old andolder, i think you probably try a fewer things and focus on what you're verygood at i have a bunch of students. Some of them are like really good atinvesting their pechlaner and what not and i they're ffective ly my mentorsright. I help them a poker. They help me a life and i always ask like, shouldi be doing something else i say: can tell this poker training like somehowdoesn't work just keep doing this, because you have it's by far your bestopportunity, you like it and you're good at it. So i don't screw it up alot of people...

...either get burnt out or get tired, oget annoyed and they just want to change right. But i've done things suchas, like hire other people to manage the business to manage the coaches etcetera. I thinks i don't really like necessarily doing such that i can justmake good content, and i like that, that's where i'm good at and it makesit to wear. I can't really get burnt out from the bother coaching businessand it continues to grow so whatever i want to do this until there's a reasonnot to, but i don't. I always can't imagine it's going to continue growingbecause, like how many more people could actually sign up, but it keepsgrowing so whatever and keep doing this indefinitely everything else. That is ahobby to some extent that could take off and to be fair. Making trainingcontent was a hobby that could have taken off right. Like i said before, iwas losing thousands of dollars for a month on this training side hobby. Iwas just okay with right, i mean like it was fine and it took off. Who knowsi mean? Maybe if i stopped a month before i met dan, maybe i would havejust been dead and i would have been that i mean who knows. What's going tohappen like for all no ice was, could have taken off they wouldn't, if theydidn't put, they couldn't right. I could have gotten into the one thatactually did well, but i didn't- and you never really know, what's going tohappen in the future, and for that reason you want to always keep youreyes open for things that you could get into. That said pretty much everyoneout. There is really good at something, and you should probably looking at thatspace more than others. Even if that space is not especially, i don't know,popular bible whatever, like poker, has been on a slow but steady decline sincetwo thousand and five or so to some extent due to all sorts of things rightlike the bad players go broke and they quit new players. Try to get in, butthe game is tough, so they don't get into it. Us government makes it illegal to playonline, like all these things are kind of negative towards it and, if like, ifyou look at google searches for poker book, er related turns are all justlike kind of down. That means you just have to do a better job of helpingpeople improve right. Look i mean find what you're good at and focus on thatto some extent, because that's where you have an area expertise, i'm not anexpert at cryptocurrency or property, or gold or ftse or any of this. So idabble right. Maybe the hobby takes off, maybe it doesn't yep. We talked aboutangel of vesting right, the very start and that's another thing that who knowswho could be talking about in five years as a a fairly big windfall or not?You don't neeally know. Yes, i've made a few angel investments by myselfbefore i met jason calacanis' and they all failed okay and looking at how hegoes about angel n best and he tries to find companies that already have prettygood product market product market fit products that are companies that have alot of customers. Things that are somewhat differentiated in relativelypopular spaces or relatively like good spaces right, like you,probably not want o, invest in a poker training site because, like i said,slowly decline, space right, especially a start up because then you'recompeting with the other good companies like mine and a few others out there. Ilike the way he goes about investing in things that make logical sense insteadof things that you just like right and it's nuff, like i've invested in a few sites to play poker on and they've allfailed, but maybe they could have worked right. It's hard to know.Thisness is fail all the time for reasons outside of the founders control,and you know i doubt right, i'm not all inon it. I dabble and i realized, with angel investing. I don't know what i'mdoing here, so you find experts and you follow them. Unfortunately, with thingslike syndicates, you can sign up, get updates from various companies andlearn what they're doing. For example, though jason i have invested in fit bod,which is a ap that teaches you how to work out. Basically, it's like aworkout training, app a membership site sounds kind of like mine. I teachpeople to get good at poker. They teach people to get in shape and i've learneda lot of stuff about like marketing through looking at what they do andhearing their founders talk on it. I wouldn't think that was a tom twister,but t was so you know i'm always trying to learn about business and investingthrough other people who have invested in. So i'm always trying to learn rightawesome. I really appreciate that the break down you're in l you're doing alot of different things, but i love the message there that it's really onething you got good at and your biggest cash flow and capital sources thatpower all the other investments really...

...came from poker and then teaching andsupporting other poco players. So the albis connection is there? Don't itlet's wrap it up? Is there anything else you want to sort of share with theaudience. Obviously, for websites we've mentioned poker coaching com forwardfree. If you want to get started with that, is there anything else you wantto send people to or or talk about, people can follow me on twitter. Atjonathan little a d, i post all sorts of over related content there. They canalso check on my youtube channel youtube poker coaching, that's it, youknow, show up, do good work had a value and good things will come great. Well,i thank you for sharing the time and it's been great to hear your storythanks for having me there, you have it. I hope you enjoyed that episode withjonathan little and you are now excited to begin your professional poker careeror, if not at least, you walked away with some insights into what it takesto become a seven figure earner in the world of poker and also some amazinginside into growing a multi, seven figure, membership side and justgeneral advice, and how to get good at something and also, and a great exampleof someone, who's really prolific with content online and how much that'sbenefited him over the years. So i was certainly inspired by that before i go.I just want to mention that this episode of vested capital is brought toyou by in box done com, which is a company that takes over managing youremail for you. So if you're drowning in messages, whether it's email in yourinbox, it's custom support, help test tickets, it's even direct messages inyour social media profiles, instagram linked in facebook, twitter and so on.You need an inbox manager to step in and not just manage and organize youremail and your messages, but to actually reply to them. For you, that'swhat in box done offers it's a company. Now it's been running for over fouryears. They have a team o over twenty five people, managing in boxes for allkinds of different companies from doctors and lawyers, online coaches,venture capitalist angel investors, car retayles, restaurant owners. It reallydoesn't matter we're all struggling with too much email, and if that's you,then you need help just head to in box done com and book a discovery call totalk about getting some inbox managers to help with your email. Okay, that'sit! For me, my name is yaro and i will talk to you on the very next episode ofvested capital by by.

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